I think that it might be a good idea, but I think that reducing the Endurance loss by 1/2/3 points is too little by itself. I understand that not losing the next turn is quite the plus (especially in Forward stance), but I keep thinking that it's too little.Michebugio wrote:Here's my proposal: check Adventurer's Book, page 160. Yes, that option that I bet that all your players always forget: the possibility to halve the Damage you get (rounded up) at the price of losing your next turn.
To make armor relevant, and more interesting, maybe we can change this rule as follows.
We then have rules symmetry both with the Inspire ability in the Open Stance, and with the Hideous Thougness of some monsters in case of Hope expenditure. Moreover, it's not game breaking, while still giving a substantial advantage to armor, more so the heavier they are.Instead of simply halving the Damage, we can require the player who wants to "roll with the blow" to make a TN 14 Protection check. He doesn't lose his next turn doing so.
- If he fails, the character can't avoid the Damage. On a Sauron roll on the Feat dice, the hit is also considered a Piercing Strike (requiring immediately another Protection roll to avoid the Wound).
- On a Normal success, he ignores 1 Damage from the blow.
- On a Great success, he ignores 2 Damage from the blow.
- On an Extraordinary success, he ignores an amount of Damage equal to 3 or to his Body score value. (A dwarven Ancient Hauberk may let his wearer use his favourite score of Body to determine the Damage reduction)
The character can also choose to spend Hope to automatically gain the benefit of an Extraordinary success.
What do you think?
Well, take a Dwarf with a Heart score of 4. He has 32 Endurance, let's say he has an Hauberk, a Helm, an Axe and a Buckler: he goes to Fatigue 29, which drops to 25 for being a Dwarf. Then he can also lower the Encumbrance value of his armor with Rewards... even at character creation, it's perfectly possible that he starts with a Fatigue of 23 all geared up.Corvo wrote:The hypothetical 5d armour+helm is a whopping 26 fatigue. Add some weapon and we are in the 28-32 range.
Most PCs don't have such endurance! The PC is already tired or will be at the first blow/fatigue roll.
This doesn't actually balance things up, simply because we are now outside combat (in the case of fatigue rolls increased TN) or we are talking about taking more blows which aren't actually harder, since total damage depends only on the number of Tengwars rolled by your opponent, not on your Parry value: so a fatigued character will take more blows, but the Attercops of the example before should still roll a double T with their 2 attack dices to deal even just 3 Damage on your character.Corvo wrote:Speaking of fatigue roll: that is a +6 to tn! Even a stroll around Beorn's home would be tn18. A trek on the elf path is some 22 or more (going from memory).
And here we come to the third part of my house rules: Parry is a skill, and combat is an opposed roll. Being weary makes your parry less effective, so you take more blows, in a vicious circle.
Well, indeed. Armor definitely gives an advantage in real-life combat, and in TOR we are simply accepting a distorsion of reality for the sake of game balanceCorvo wrote:About armour vs no armour: historically, people who can afford armour bought armour. Outside of money the only limit was usually the climate (hot climate was bad for tin men): but that is fatigue rolls-ground, TOR-wise. And despite the climate even Muslim heavy cavalry used chainmail when they got the chance.
Woodclaw, think more about that. It's basically a free roll, with only a small percentage of risk to make it worse, that allows you to shrug off some Damage, up to 7 points. I'm more concerned about abuse by the players, than it being still too little! In fact, I should add that it can be used only once per turn.Woodclaw wrote:I think that it might be a good idea, but I think that reducing the Endurance loss by 1/2/3 points is too little by itself. I understand that not losing the next turn is quite the plus (especially in Forward stance), but I keep thinking that it's too little.
All very true, but at this point I would consider if it won't be better to keep the turn loss penalty.Michebugio wrote:Woodclaw, think more about that. It's basically a free roll, with only a small percentage of risk to make it worse, that allows you to shrug off some Damage, up to 7 points. I'm more concerned about abuse by the players, than it being still too little! In fact, I should add that it can be used only once per turn.Woodclaw wrote:I think that it might be a good idea, but I think that reducing the Endurance loss by 1/2/3 points is too little by itself. I understand that not losing the next turn is quite the plus (especially in Forward stance), but I keep thinking that it's too little.
I playtested it "extensively", but just with my group (all Barding). This is an interesting issue.Yepesnopes wrote:I was wondering that if you house rule armours to be more relevant, will it be needed to house rule as well those characters like hobbits and woodmen that cannot carry heavy armour due to their low endurance score?
I would add a solution 5: set a mininal damage (1 for each rank of success perhaps) that each blow inflict even against heavier armour. While the armour cushion most of the impact, if a blow connects there's bound to be some effect, even if it's just a bruise.Corvo wrote:@michebugio
Ok, one of the weakest creature in the game against the most armoured Dwarf (with the highest Heart, too). Let see if I can stand such challenge
Solution 1: raise damage to 4. For attercops and jagged knife.
Solution 2: ditch 5d armour. By the raw it's worst than useless, nobody is using it. We can excise it without problems.
Solution 3: keep it as it is. We are talking about the toughest guy in Middle-Earth, against puny enemies. Let these Attercops roll 2 tengwars!
Solution 4: have "seize victim" make the victim weary. Attercops need to ensnare before attacking with their sting. Being weary heavy armour isn't proof against a wounding blow. Venom+wounding blow is pretty lethal.
That is the solution I adopted when I ran attercops vs armoured group, since "halve parry score" was a bit weird in my game, where Parry is a skill. It was a very tense encounter.
You are right! I forgot my Cyberpunk rootsWoodclaw wrote:I would add a solution 5: set a mininal damage (1 for each rank of success perhaps) that each blow inflict even against heavier armour. While the armour cushion most of the impact, if a blow connects there's bound to be some effect, even if it's just a bruise.Corvo wrote:@michebugio
Ok, one of the weakest creature in the game against the most armoured Dwarf (with the highest Heart, too). Let see if I can stand such challenge
Solution 1: raise damage to 4. For attercops and jagged knife.
Solution 2: ditch 5d armour. By the raw it's worst than useless, nobody is using it. We can excise it without problems.
Solution 3: keep it as it is. We are talking about the toughest guy in Middle-Earth, against puny enemies. Let these Attercops roll 2 tengwars!
Solution 4: have "seize victim" make the victim weary. Attercops need to ensnare before attacking with their sting. Being weary heavy armour isn't proof against a wounding blow. Venom+wounding blow is pretty lethal.
That is the solution I adopted when I ran attercops vs armoured group, since "halve parry score" was a bit weird in my game, where Parry is a skill. It was a very tense encounter.
I know this might seem counterintuitive, but there are a few games that apply this kind of logic (Cyberpunk 2020 off the top of my head)
