Elfcrusher's Combat Simulator

[Rocmistro]

Elf:

I like it but still don't get Athletics as the operator. Let me make sure I understand this right:

-Party makes Travel checks, per the normal rules, depending on journey length, time of year, and type of terrain.
-A failed Travel check and they take fatigue gain equal to (what is currently RAW for Armor Fatigue values).

Where does athletics come in? (And why?)

[Glorelendil]

Elf:

I like it but still don't get Athletics as the operator. Let me make sure I understand this right:

-Party makes Travel checks, per the normal rules, depending on journey length, time of year, and type of terrain.
-A failed Travel check and they take fatigue gain equal to (what is currently RAW for Armor Fatigue values).

Where does athletics come in? (And why?)

Not quite.

- All party members make Travel checks, as normal. Failure = 1 point of fatigue.
- Party members wearing/carrying armor make an additional check, using Athletics. Failure = 1-5 points of fatigue.

Admittedly, it nags at me that the penalty for failing armor checks is so much higher than the penalty for failing travel checks, even though in some sense the armor check is optional.

An alternative would make it a single roll that both incorporates armor into the roll (modified TN?) and determines the penalty, but that suggests that armor "skill" falls under the category of traveling, which seems weird.

Honestly I sort of come back to the idea of having Armor be a separate skill...

[Rocmistro]

Hrm. Can I suggest a compromise/hybrid?

-Armor has a basic encumbrance value that is always part of the static fatigue value. Let's call it half of what it currently is, so 2/4/6/8/10.
-Armor also has a Travel Fatigue rating equal to 1/2 of that. So, 1/2/3/4/5
-On any given failed travel check, a hero takes Travel Fatgiue equal to his seasonal wear + armor. So 1 (summer/spring or 2 (winter/fall) + 1-5

That would do away with the athletics check, which I never really liked anyway

[Glorelendil]

Yeah, I also consider a hybrid and like it. The downside (in my mind) is that it makes "Travel" the skill for wearing armor, which doesn't feel quite right.

[Rocmistro]

As a former Marine, I'll say this: the most difficult, annoying, painful and exhausting thing you will ever do in the military* is "humping" (walking 20 miles with a bunch of gear on). And the only way you get good at it is by continually humping. It's a test of sheer endurance.

I would argue that the Travel skills works perfectly in this regard. If there was an Armor skill, I think it would govern not the physical conditioning (although it could), but rather improving (or otherwise modifying) the chance of protecting against piercing blows.

*Presumably, aside from getting shot.

[Glorelendil]

As a former Marine, I'll say this: the most difficult, annoying, painful and exhausting thing you will ever do in the military* is "humping" (walking 20 miles with a bunch of gear on). And the only way you get good at it is by continually humping. It's a sheer endurance.

I would argue that the Travel skills works perfectly in this regard. If there was an Armor skill, I think it would govern not the physical conditioning (although it could), but rather improving (or otherwise modifying) the chance of protecting against piercing blows.

*Presumably, aside from getting shot.

As a former climber/mountaineer, I concur.

But I just don't think of Travel as being "endurance". After all it's under Heart not Body. I think of it as "knowing how to be comfortable in the wild and not sprain your ankle.".

I haven't done any technical climbing in years and I'm fat and weak, but I still know exactly what to bring, where to bivvy, how to walk on talus and wet logs, how to keep the bears out of my food stash, what a safe rappel is, etc. To me that's "Travel" skill.

I'm not super stuck on this point, though. The hybrid, Travel-only solution works for me. The main point is to differentiate between putting armor on for a battle and living in your armor day after day. That's both more realistic, and makes for more interesting armor decisions.

[Rocmistro]

Here's why I would put it under "Heart":

I can give just about anybody a 50 pound pack and tell them to walk. If I keep them motivated, I can get just about anybody that can walk to walk for 25 miles. They will complain and cry the whole way, and it will hurt and be exhausting and many blisters on feet and every last square inch of their clothes will be dripping in sweat. But they can do it.

However, no matter how much I get drill instructor on my wife, there is no way, at 5'1" that she's going to bench press 300 lbs without a LONG regimen of weight training. (sheer physical power)

And no matter how much Jillian Michaels screams and yells and motivates me and promises me $1,000,000 dollars, I am not going to get on the uneven parallel bars and execute a perfect dismount without first breaking my neck. (skill level)

[Glorelendil]

Oh, god, this is starting to sound like a Warlord debate on the D&D forums...

In any event, riffing on your comment about the uneven bars, Travel is categorized in ToR as a "skill", not a trait or an attribute. So I interpret it as knowledge (including subconscious knowledge & muscle memory) not fitness.

Does your Travel skill go down if you don't travel for a long time?

[Rocmistro]

Oh, god, this is starting to sound like a Warlord debate on the D&D forums...

In any event, riffing on your comment about the uneven bars, Travel is categorized in ToR as a "skill", not a trait or an attribute. So I interpret it as knowledge (including subconscious knowledge & muscle memory) not fitness.

Does your Travel skill go down if you don't travel for a long time?

Eh? Warlord debate? Sounds enticing, do tell! And yes, to answer your question, I imagine it would go down if I didn't travel for a long time.

Hey without going too much further on this particular thing, I'm just saying, Francisco decided to put Travel under Heart. I see your point about body/endurance and skill and traits. But he says it's Heart and I have enough personal experience with that to allow it to make sense for me. I guess that's all I'm really getting at.

My big reason against involving Athletics is that I think it (Athletics skill) already gets a lot of love in gameplay. Athletics involves running, jumping, rowing, climbing, swimming, balancing, carrying...and these are all things that happen a lot in adventuring. One of the things my players noticed early was how often it came up, and I daresay I tried really hard to not make athletics a catch-all skill.

[Glorelendil]

My big reason against involving Athletics is that I think it (Athletics skill) already gets a lot of love in gameplay. Athletics involves running, jumping, rowing, climbing, swimming, balancing, carrying...and these are all things that happen a lot in adventuring. One of the things my players noticed early was how often it came up, and I daresay I tried really hard to not make athletics a catch-all skill.

Totally agree with that.

Thus....ARMOR SKILL!!!!