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Oh, and I interpret "heart" as meaning that you don't get discouraged by sleeping on the ground, hiking in the rain, eating cold cram, and discovering yet another false summit. If it were just a matter of staying on your feet with a heavy pack, then having a pack animal...or a boat...would have a much bigger impact (either on speed or TNs) than it currently does.

How do you interpret Travel skill & rolls as applied to traveling on a boat? I see it as largely the same as traveling on foot: you're trying to stay optimistic and avoid mishaps while eating lousy food, sleeping outdoors, and slapping mosquitos.

Elfcrusher wrote: Is a Sauron an automatic failure or isn't it?

(I checked, an no one seems to have addressed this)

No, a sauron is NOT an automatic failure. It's a result of 0 for the d12, and a potential botch.

High skill and low TN's can succeed despite a Sauron. In fact, I had this happen last sunday. Skill 3 athletics vs TN 12, roll as S,4,4,6. Total was 14, a success, and a great success at that. Another player (for the same action) rolled S,6 on his 1 athletics, but was able to add his 7 body, and so also succeeded with a great success.

Certain events are triggered by saurons on tests (as opposed to tasks).

Elfcrusher wrote:How do you interpret Travel skill & rolls as applied to traveling on a boat? I see it as largely the same as traveling on foot: you're trying to stay optimistic and avoid mishaps while eating lousy food, sleeping outdoors, and slapping mosquitos.

Most boats are not sailing through the night, and on rivers, few have an anchor worthy of the name; this means landing at night. Most of the bad stuff requires little extra work to adapt - either have it be attacks when tucking ashore, or water monsters during the day.

aramis wrote:

Elfcrusher wrote:How do you interpret Travel skill & rolls as applied to traveling on a boat? I see it as largely the same as traveling on foot: you're trying to stay optimistic and avoid mishaps while eating lousy food, sleeping outdoors, and slapping mosquitos.

Most boats are not sailing through the night, and on rivers, few have an anchor worthy of the name; this means landing at night. Most of the bad stuff requires little extra work to adapt - either have it be attacks when tucking ashore, or water monsters during the day.

This was in response to a debate about whether or not "Travel" skill meant the ability to suck it up and carry a heavy pack all day, or something else. I was offering the boat example evidence of the latter.

Elfcrusher wrote:

aramis wrote:

Elfcrusher wrote:How do you interpret Travel skill & rolls as applied to traveling on a boat? I see it as largely the same as traveling on foot: you're trying to stay optimistic and avoid mishaps while eating lousy food, sleeping outdoors, and slapping mosquitos.

Most boats are not sailing through the night, and on rivers, few have an anchor worthy of the name; this means landing at night. Most of the bad stuff requires little extra work to adapt - either have it be attacks when tucking ashore, or water monsters during the day.

This was in response to a debate about whether or not "Travel" skill meant the ability to suck it up and carry a heavy pack all day, or something else. I was offering the boat example evidence of the latter.

It's still the same issue -you're beaching at night. Whomever is dragging it in is cold, wet, and tired; whomever pushes it off in the morning starts the travel day cold and wet. All things that make it more likely that you'll have issues.

aramis wrote: It's still the same issue -you're beaching at night. Whomever is dragging it in is cold, wet, and tired; whomever pushes it off in the morning starts the travel day cold and wet. All things that make it more likely that you'll have issues.

I don't think you can possibly equate beaching and launching a boat with carrying a pack all day long. In any event, that would be Boating skill, not Travel skill.

But I think we're talking past each other.

I'm not arguing that you shouldn't make Travel rolls in boats. I'm suggesting that the need to make Travel rolls in boats is evidence that "Travel" is more "knowledge and experience in how to travel" than it is "fitness and determination in carrying a pack all day long."

Oh, I almost forgot, the main reason I popped back into this thread was to say that I launched a New & Improved combat simulator. I finally got around to learning some .css and trying to make it pretty. Still a whole lot I'd like to improve, but this is a start.

http://lit-oasis-7482.herokuapp.com/

Hopefully I didn't break too much messing with the UI. Please report bugs here.

Elfcrusher wrote:

aramis wrote: It's still the same issue -you're beaching at night. Whomever is dragging it in is cold, wet, and tired; whomever pushes it off in the morning starts the travel day cold and wet. All things that make it more likely that you'll have issues.

I don't think you can possibly equate beaching and launching a boat with carrying a pack all day long. In any event, that would be Boating skill, not Travel skill.

But I think we're talking past each other.

I'm not arguing that you shouldn't make Travel rolls in boats. I'm suggesting that the need to make Travel rolls in boats is evidence that "Travel" is more "knowledge and experience in how to travel" than it is "fitness and determination in carrying a pack all day long."

I can, and I did, make that equation. We're not talking big sailboats. Most of the river traffic on the Anduin will be rafts, rowboats, and canoes, with rowed longboats as the "big ships", and the occasional barge. Having been a passenger on a canoe for a 4-hour trip, it's almost as tiring as hiking. It's the enforced inactivity. It's especially bad when you're wet - you have to sit relatively still, so you can't exercise to get warm. Plus, usually, the only comfortable seats on such craft are the crew seats.

On a longboat, the passengers probably can and should get a bonus on the travel rolls... perhaps a -4 TN if on a big enough longboat in the summer, but a +2 TN in a canoe in the winter - you can't get warm.

I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing: are you saying that traveling in a typical boat on a typical river is as physically demanding...not at the hardest moments like beaching a boat but all day along...as hiking with a heavy pack? (Rocmistro threw out 50 pounds as a number, which isn't even all that heavy.)

Elfcrusher wrote:I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing: are you saying that traveling in a typical boat on a typical river is as physically demanding...not at the hardest moments like beaching a boat but all day along...as hiking with a heavy pack? (Rocmistro threw out 50 pounds as a number, which isn't even all that heavy.)

Not as "physically demanding", but certainly as tiring, uncomfortable, and demoralizing. Especially outside the summer. In winter, the risks of frostbite are worst on the passengers - the rowers have exercise to keep them warm.

Going through the various C7 One Ring books I can find two types of boats that are likely to be used for long-distance travel i.e. requiring sitting on a boat all day and not rowing.

The River-folk Houseboats - barges big enough for a whole family, including provisions and livestock —are much slower and less agile, and often must be hauled with ropes from the riverbanks when going upstream, and so rarely stray beyond the safe waters between the Old Ford and the borders of the haunted Golden Wood.

The Lake-town Longships used for the transportation of goods or armed men can be between 50 to 80 feet long. They are fitted with oars along almost the entire length of the boat itself, and can have from ten to twenty rowing benches.

Neither strike me as being cramped and requiring sitting stationary for long periods of inactivity.

A smaller rowboat or sailboat is unlikely to have much spare space for passengers and a regular rotation of rowers would be sufficient to keep warm. A boat used for transporting a number of passengers would likely have a canopy of some kind to keep off inclement weather and plenty of furs and maybe a brazier to warm any dignitaries.

This seems to be a straw man argument based on sitting in a canoe close to water with little insulation from the elements and using that to extrapolate to medieval style water transport.