Elfcrusher's Combat Simulator

[Glorelendil]

Not as "physically demanding", but certainly as tiring, uncomfortable, and demoralizing. Especially outside the summer. In winter, the risks of frostbite are worst on the passengers - the rowers have exercise to keep them warm.

Ok, we're not disagreeing. I'm not arguing that Travel rolls shouldn't be required when using boats. I was arguing..."discussing"...with Rocmistro that Travel is a learned skill, not physical fitness.

[Evening]

I .as hiking with a heavy pack? (Rocmistro threw out 50 pounds as a number, which isn't even all that heavy.)

Say's who? Somebody that's using a molle or ible 782 gear?

[Evening]

Neither strike me as being cramped and requiring sitting stationary for long periods of inactivity.

People living near rivers and lakes for more than a millennia have scores of different types of watercraft to suit their needs. If you have a rowboat or sailboat that fits one person, then there are rowboats and sailboats just for two, four, six and so on. It wouldn't surprise me if Laketown alone had 20 or more different types of watercraft.


I know the realists on the TOR forums aren't popular, but aramis has a valid point.

[Hermes Serpent]

I'll tell you what, you write rules and playtest them and present them with your rationale here and people will take a look and comment, but don't start arguments over who has a better grasp of hiking and boating or someone might just bring down the banhammer (or Jon might have a quiet word which is worse).

[aramis]

I don't see the need for many large boats - Laketown (on the Running River) has a few for certain (because Jon painted them) but it's only a population of a hair over 1000 people, and even in modern times, getting a large volume of trade through a port pushes arount a ton per person served by that port (up to about 10x that for the busiest). So, maybe 500 tons per year? that would be handled easily by 5-6 knarrs running 4 trips a year.

So that leaves the smaller boats for most purposes. (They're cheaper to operate and to build). A 20'x4' flat-bottom dinghy can carry around 3 tons of cargo with a crew of 3-4, and a draft of a foot laden, leaving 6" for gunwales. A 10'x4' one can carry about 1.5 tons of cargo with a crew of 1-2

Canoes and dinghies are the most likely available boats on either river; we know they were used in ME because Tolkien describes them when the company uses them in LOTR. Light-wood (eg, poplar) rafts are easily made, and Jon put illustrations of some in the Laketown book. A good canoe can carry half a ton and 3 people.

So, really, for most of the rivers shown, most of the travel should be pretty well mostly small, shallow-water boats, not the big stuff that can safely run 5' draft down the Running River. There's little room to maneuver if there's cargo, and if not, you still need to be relatively still as a passenger, you're exposed to the same bugs, bats, and birds; you're exposed to the wind, you're probably not sitting on a bench (resulting in kneeling or sitting cross-legged), you're being jostled, and you can't be up and exercising. (even changing seats in such boats requires coordination of efforts.)

So, in all seriousness, most passengers should be, at best, a step easier than the terrain. (TN-2). In cool weather, not even that. And in winter weather, probably TN+2 for lack of exercise and its body heat. If rotating everyone through, everyone's spending part of the time immobile, and you lose time carefully shifting positions, so half the bonus/penalty, but slow progress slightly.

A passenger on a big river boat probably should get a TN-2 most of the time - but there really shouldn't be access to them much besides Laketown or the Iron Hills to Dorwinion, and points between.

The Anduin's not particularly navigable - at least not north of the Old Ford - due to the numerous current and former fords and the potential to reef "serious" trade boats.

[Glorelendil]

My thread derailment of my own thread has now officially been derailed.

[Rocmistro]

I just wanted to say huzzah to Evening for mentioning deuce gear!

[Otaku-sempai]

Going through the various C7 One Ring books I can find two types of boats that are likely to be used for long-distance travel i.e. requiring sitting on a boat all day and not rowing.

The River-folk Houseboats - barges big enough for a whole family, including provisions and livestock —are much slower and less agile, and often must be hauled with ropes from the riverbanks when going upstream, and so rarely stray beyond the safe waters between the Old Ford and the borders of the haunted Golden Wood.

The Lake-town Longships used for the transportation of goods or armed men can be between 50 to 80 feet long. They are fitted with oars along almost the entire length of the boat itself, and can have from ten to twenty rowing benches.

The bird-headed (heron?) boats that Tolkien depicted in illustrating Lake-town--and which I assume he had in mind for the three boats that transported the company up the Long Lake and River Running--had four pairs of oars plus a man at the tiller and looked to be about 25 to 30 feet long. These sufficed to transport the company and provisions; the ponies and horses (with additional supplies?) were sent overland to meet them at a pre-arranged landing place.

[Hermes Serpent]

I didn't include for purposes of that discussion "The smallest boats are the ones employed in Laketown for everyday use, round-bottomed skiffs allowing for two, four or eight rear-facing oarsmen." which are mentioned in the Lkae-town sourcebook.

[Evening]

I'll tell you what, you write rules and playtest them and present them with your rationale here and people will take a look and comment, but don't start arguments over who has a better grasp of hiking and boating or someone might just bring down the banhammer (or Jon might have a quiet word which is worse).

Why so grumpy? When did stating that someone's comments have merit constitute starting an argument?

So that leaves the smaller boats for most purposes. (They're cheaper to operate and to build).

That was my thoughts exactly. Plenty of personalized craft of all sizes.

I just wanted to say huzzah to Evening for mentioning deuce gear!

Never can get the smell out of those packs.