Alternative Knockback rules (with armor house rule)

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Michebugio
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Alternative Knockback rules (with armor house rule)

Post by Michebugio » Fri May 02, 2014 7:29 pm

Since this topic was becoming a mess, and my own house-rules topic is even more chaotic and needs a deep re-formatting, here are two alternatives for the Knockback rule (there was a third, older than the two you'll read here, but I dropped it).

Formal coherence and rule symmetry by me, but credits must be given to zedturtle, tomfish and Woodclaw.

ALTERNATIVE KNOCKBACK, version 0.9 - Knockback rules
In the Adventurer’s Book, page 160, replace the "Knockback" paragraph with the following:

KNOCKBACK:

Fighters soon discover that sometimes it is better to literally ‘roll with the punches,’ and reduce the force of an attack by stepping back or to the side, kneeling under the force of a blow or using their armor to better absorb the impact – in gaming terms, they learn to let themselves be ‘knocked back’ by their opponent.

Characters may reduce the Endurance loss caused by a successful attack making a roll of Athletics OR a Protection Test against a Target Number equal to the Injury rating of the weapon used by the attacker.

On a successful roll, the companion halves the Endurance points lost from the attack (rounding fractions up) by letting himself to be thrown off-balance. If the knock back attempt fails, the acting hero suffers the normal Endurance loss AND is thrown off-balance.

A character who is knocked back (whether on a failed or successful knockback attempt) cannot change his stance and will spend his following round recovering his fighting position, unable to take any further action that turn. If an adversary attacks while a hero is recovering from knockback, the attack is resolved normally.

A Great or Extraordinary success is needed for the acting hero to keep his balance: if the roll matches or beats the TN and the player obtains at least one T icon on his rolled Success dice, he halves the Endurance loss caused by the attack without needing to recover on his next turn.
ALTERNATIVE KNOCKBACK, version 1.0 - Knockback and Armor Absorption rules
In the Adventurer’s Book, page 160, replace the "Knockback" paragraph with the following:

Characters have two ways to reduce Endurance loss: letting themselves to be knocked back by the blow, or try to absorb the force of an attack with their armor.

KNOCKBACK:

Fighters soon discover that sometimes it is better to literally ‘roll with the punches,’ and reduce the force of an attack by stepping back or to the side or by kneeling under the force of a blow – in gaming terms, they learn to let themselves be ‘knocked back’ by their opponent.

Characters may reduce the Endurance loss caused by a successful attack making a roll of Athletics. The TN for the roll is equal to 10 plus the Attribute level of the opponent who hit the character.

On a successful roll, the companion halves the Endurance points lost from the attack (rounding fractions up) by letting himself to be thrown off-balance. If the knock back attempt fails, the acting hero suffers the normal Endurance loss AND is thrown off-balance.

A character who is knocked back (whether on a failed or successful knockback attempt) cannot change his stance and will spend his following round recovering his fighting position, unable to take any further action that turn.

If an adversary attacks while a hero is recovering from knockback, the attack is resolved normally. If the companion is hit again, he may attempt another Athletics roll to halve the Endurance loss, but a great or extraordinary success is needed this time.

ABSORB IMPACT:

Protection given by armor helps to prevent wounding blows, but it can also soften the impact of less dangerous attacks. Instead of letting themselves to be knocked back by their opponent, fighters may use their armors to absorb the shock of an attack, exposing none but the most protected parts of their body.

A character attempting to do so makes a Protection Test against a Target Number equal to the Injury rating of the weapon used by the attacker.

If the result doesn’t produce any T icons, the absorb impact attempt fails, even if the total result matches or beats the TN.

If the roll doesn’t match or beat the Target Number and the player gets an Eye icon on his feat die, a piece of the armor breaks and it becomes damaged. Damaged armor can’t be used to absorb impacts and all Protection Tests are now made as if the character is Weary.

If the roll matches or beats the Injury rating AND the player obtains at least one T icon on his rolled Success dice, he halves the Endurance loss caused by the attack.
Last edited by Michebugio on Sat May 03, 2014 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Glorelendil
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Re: Alternative Knockback rules (with armor house rule)

Post by Glorelendil » Fri May 02, 2014 8:20 pm

How about:

Image

I.e., they each use a different skill and TN, and the results are identical except for a different "bad" thing that happens on a Sauron.

Oh, and I think a Sauron is a Sauron, regardless of the dice total.
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Michebugio
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Re: Alternative Knockback rules (with armor house rule)

Post by Michebugio » Sat May 03, 2014 11:34 am

Elfcrusher wrote:I.e., they each use a different skill and TN, and the results are identical except for a different "bad" thing that happens on a Sauron.
To keep things simple, if the results are identical except for the Eye result, I strongly believe that they shouldn't be two separate maneuvers: instead, they both should be a Knockback, much like the Alternative Knockback, version 0.9, adding (at Loremaster's discretion) the possibility for a bad thing to happen on a Sauron, depending on which roll the player has chosen (Athletics or Protection Test).

Eye on Athletics = Fumble and Eye on Protection Test = Armor Damaged make a lot of sense and should be used as the "baseline" effects for any LM who wishes to use the rule, though :)

Finally, on the "No Damage" on Extraordinary Success: for a Hauberk that happens around 20% of the times, which sounds a bit much to my ear, but I admit I haven't a grasp on the real effects and I should play-test it a bit.

By the way, in the end I happen to like the version 0.9 the most. Version 1.0 seems to lead to a lot more rolling and book-keeping, which I fear doesn't suit TOR well: I guess I'll drop it soon and keep just one rule for Alternative Knockback.
Last edited by Michebugio on Sat May 03, 2014 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Glorelendil
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Re: Alternative Knockback rules (with armor house rule)

Post by Glorelendil » Sat May 03, 2014 7:39 pm

Good criticisms. I modified the image (the one above should look different, too):

Image

The penalty for using Absorb, with no tengwars, becomes "Numb" instead of "Off-balance". I was thinking the penalty for Numb should be that next round you roll the Feat die twice (for all rolls, not just attack) and take worse result. That's not as bad as losing your turn completely...unless you have to roll Protection.

With that change, the tables are parallel, but the skill used, the TNs, and the penalties are all different. In my mind that calls for different skills. The point of the parallelism is simply to make the rules easier to memorize & use.

(Oh, and I meant "Injury" not "Edge"; fixed that, too.)

EDIT: "Stunned", "Staggered", and "Dazed" are alternatives to "Numb" or "Numbed".
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Rocmistro
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Re: Alternative Knockback rules (with armor house rule)

Post by Rocmistro » Sun May 04, 2014 2:20 pm

Unfortunately, and with terrific respect to all the people who labored and agonized over the problem, and who theorized and reasoned and argued for a collaborative solution, I must say that I don't support this as the official fan-based answer to heavy armor.

I'm not suggesting my opinion does or should matter a great deal. But I would like to see a ruling that has all the theme, elegance and consistency of the rest of the RAW. Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I'd like to see a ruling that has a chance of seeing inclusion in a second edition.

And why does that matter? Currently TOR doesn't carry enough demand with outside-Tolkien-dork circles for me to find a real life gaming group. I love this game, but I can also see why many of my peers don't. Having a tighter presentation (organization) as well as a tighter rule set (revisions) might be the double shot that this game needs to break into bigger markets.

- Again, with all sincere respect to everyone who has labored on this, official and unofficial, paid or unpaid.
Rignuth: Barding Wordweaver Wanderer in Southron Loremaster's game.
Amroth Ol'Hir: High Elf Vengeful Kin Slayer in Zedturtle's game.
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Glorelendil
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Re: Alternative Knockback rules (with armor house rule)

Post by Glorelendil » Sun May 04, 2014 2:31 pm

Rocmistro wrote: I'm not suggesting my opinion does or should matter a great deal. But I would like to see a ruling that has all the theme, elegance and consistency of the rest of the RAW. Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I'd like to see a ruling that has a chance of seeing inclusion in a second edition.
Agree with this 100%, but sometimes you have to start with complexity, identify the key parts, and then pare down to simplicity. So I think it's worth brainstorming, even if some of the ideas aren't in the right flavor.

But it's worth mentioning that research on "brainstorming" indicates that it's only effective as a creative stimulus when people feel free to criticize ideas.
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