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I'm posting this as an extension of the previous thread on longevity races so that this idea gets more thought. I think it is quite important because when the new TOR expansion books come out, so will the new culture, the Dunedain. There were some very good comments made by a couple of TOR players who felt that the Dunedain were the focus of Sauron's corruption because they were so much stronger and made powerful servants, not because they were easier to corrupt. Well, here are my full ideas, totally based on what I have read in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion, on why I really think there should be a house-rule or an actual rule (see end of post) on the easier corruption of Dunedain and not for all mannish races:

Let's look at all the cultural races of men to compare their relationship to Sauron, and their alliance with him or not.
The Easterlings and Southrons:
these peoples were written about in the Silmarillion (this quote is about the Second Age) by Tolkien: "Now Sauron's lust and pride increased, until he knew no bounds, and he determined to make himself master of all things in Middle earth...But he ruled rather by force and fear...In the East and South well nigh all Men were under his dominion, and they grew strong in those days...To them Sauron was both king and god; they feared him exceedingly...". So it was these lesser people, who had no such strength as the Numenoreans or pretensions of great wisdom or grandeur, who fell under Sauron's dominion wholesale, bent to do his will, out of utter fear, rather than doing his will for the sake of an alliance for their own gain - it was do so or die.
The Northmen:
these peoples' story focuses on their fight against the easterling(wainrider) invasions throughout Rhovanion, and there fight against them. Never do these people seek alliance or bow down to Sauron; Tolkien never references in the appendices or in his stories, the Northmen being corrupted by Sauron's will or fighting on his side for fear of his retribution.
The Oathbreakers(ancestors of the Dunlendings) at the Hill of Erech:
these undead warrior were cursed to live in death forever for breaking their oath to Isildur and the end of the Second Age to fight against Sauron. Tolkien says that when they were summoned to battle, they did not come and broke their oath, leaving them cursed. Why is this important? Because it shows again how the lesser men of Middle earth had incredible fear of the power of Sauron - you fight for him or you hide from him; and if you fought for him, you were not necessarily corrupted, and fully evil, glady doing his will - you had no choice. But the next culture below had a choice, and this is the crux.
The Numenoreans (Dunedain)
These peoples were the only culture among men in Middle earth to hold no fear of Sauron; in fact "so great was the power and splendour of the Numenoreans in the noontide of their realm that the servants of Sauron would not withstand them, and hoping to accomplish what he could not by force, he left Middle earth for a while and went to Numenor as a hostage...". All through the Second Age, Tolkien recounts how many Numenoreans, by choice, because they held no fear of Sauron, slowly fell into shadow, because of the allure of power and glory Sauron promised them over the realms of lesser men. Finally, it was the Numenorean king Ar-Pharazon, holding Sauron prisoner in Numenor, who was so full of pride and arrogance that he treated with Sauron and heard his councils on gaining more power and everlasting life like the Valar. Of course we know that this led to the end of Numenor, and the establishment of the Exile realms of Arnor and Gondor in Middle earth.
The corruption of even the "faithful" Dunedain continued in Arnor - the Dunedain lords of Rhudaur in Arnor slowly sided with Angmar and chose to become servants of the shadow in return for power.

So my point to support a rule that reflects the easier corruption of Dunedain and bring them into shadow is this: the only race of men in Middle earth who had a choice of to follow Sauron or not were the Numenoreans. They were of such power and wisdom that they saw themselves as equals to Sauron and sought further power over the lesser men of Middle earth, even serving under the shadow to gain that status if need be. Even some "faithful" who lived in the realms of exile fell into corruption, and served him gladly, out of choice to represent such evil malice over all.

Even for the Rangers of the North, there would be great anguish at the sight of over many millenia, seeing your people utterly destroyed or fallen into shadow. The rule would reflect this despair quite nicely, but would not mean the end of them.

Rule: As one of the longevity races, Dunedain would get a +1 bonus to one weapon category at the outset of the character to reflect decades longer in practice for these people. However, the culture is susceptible to corruption and would receive a -2 penalty on their roll against it (or something similar).

Maybe Francesco or other contributors to TOR can make a comment on this proposal?

cheers

windsurfjunkie wrote: The corruption of even the "faithful" Dunedain continued in Arnor - the Dunedain lords of Rhudaur in Arnor slowly sided with Angmar and chose to become servants of the shadow in return for power.

From the historians' perspective you are absolutely right, as we can judge Angmar's purpose as a tool of Sauron. IMO it is doubtful of whether the people living at Angmar's time were aware of this. Sauron did everything to mask his identity and try to avoid any hints that the Dark Lord might have returned. He was very weak then and in the very real danger of being overwhelmed again by his then still powerful enemies - had they only recognized the situation as it really was and acted accordingly.
IMHO the fact that nothing in this way of a coordinated effort to oust the "Necromancer" from his abode for over 1,000 years is a strong hint that it was not seen as a real danger. One crucial cornerstone of this success would be to avoid any hint of Sauron returned.
Coming back to the Eriadoran wars, this probably means that Angmar did not publicly announced any "real" sauronic ideas or ideologies until the last war. It was only around this time that it was first suspected that there might be more than just human greed and lust for power attacking the Númenóreans from many quarters.
In the reverse conclusion, we might deduct from this that the pre-20th century "evil" activities against the Númenóreans were perceived as - perhaps somewhat exaggerated - normal human weaknesses of greed and lust for power among their human adversaries. Vast amies of orcs or other creatures of the shadow in the obvious service of Angmar would be very detrimental to this deliberate maskirovka.

Thus the overt Shadow as Sauron's long arm would be not that perceivable in these times (Sauron being far weaker and a deliberate restriction of the too powerful shadow effects)as it is in TOR's timeframe.

windsurfjunkie wrote: So my point to support a rule that reflects the easier corruption of Dunedain and bring them into shadow is this: the only race of men in Middle earth who had a choice of to follow Sauron or not were the Numenoreans.

I'd put it somewhat different. Here I find MERP'sn racial description fitting: Through their power and high abilities and extended (even if dwindling) lifespan they are much more aware of their abilities and possibilities in this world - and the knowledge that they have to leave it all behind despite all their might. They simply have much more to lose than their lesser cousins and this is the weakness that Sauron was so successful in exploiting.

Cheers
Tolwen

Tolwen Wrote: "From the historians' perspective you are absolutely right, as we can judge Angmar's purpose as a tool of Sauron. IMO it is doubtful of whether the people living at Angmar's time were aware of this."

Yes, but all the more reason why the Dunedain are more susceptible to corruption, because if it was just the "witch king of Angmar" (an unknown evil presence of unknown quantity) who could draw the Dunedain into shadow and betray their kindred, then what would they do knowing it was Sauron who was against them?

The Eriadorian wars were ultimately the result of the Dunedain being corrupted and not standing together against servants of darkness, whether known to be under Sauron's control or not. This is very clear in Tolkien's writings.

I only quote from Tolkien in my previous post, and do not rely on MERP's interpretation. This idea of corruption within the culture of the Numenoreans is what I think Tolkien was driving at. It is a classic tragedy where for a race as superior as the Numenoreans, their ultimate downfall was their arrogance and pride.

TOR should reflect this tragic trait of the Dunedain as portrayed by the Tolkien; this is my point.

cheers

windsurfjunkie wrote:The Eriadorian wars were ultimately the result of the Dunedain being corrupted and not standing together against servants of darkness, whether known to be under Sauron's control or not. This is very clear in Tolkien's writings.

I am not sure what you mean here. The wars and strife among the northern Dúnedain began long ago (with the division of Arnor in TA 861) before Sauron even returned (ca. TA 1000) or Angmar was founded (late 13th century TA).
It was not Sauron or his servants as the shadow that corrupted them and brought by the wars in the North, but Sauron exploited their already existing weakness and disunity. They fought amongst themselves for 400 years before there was even an Angmar. It was normal human weakness that caused their problems: envy, pride and lust for power in their own realms. The Witch-king only exploited this pre-existing situation.
According to the Tale of Years, the last Dúnedain were expelled from Rhudaur already in the early 15th century, making it a realm of lesser men only. This expulsions seems to suggest that the Dúnedain of Rhudaur (at least those that are reported of) remained loyal and faithful and for this were expelled and evil men took over.
Thus the Dúnedain in the North were not being corrupted by temptations of evil (individual exceptions always possible). If we could talk about the influence of corruption or shadow it would be their disability to re-unite after Angmar's founding. But this would have to mean they had to overcome their own human weaknesses (especially pride). On a political level, it was attempted by Arthedain in the 14th century, but due to unfortunate circumstances (and likely scheming of Angmar) it was not achieved.

Overall, I know of no direct examples of Dúnedain as a group being directly corrupted (i.e. serving the Shadow) in Arnor's histories, but being fought by it and in turn fighting Angmar. Their primary failure is their lack of unity which long pre-existed Angmar or even Sauron's return.

windsurfjunkie wrote:This idea of corruption within the culture of the Numenoreans is what I think Tolkien was driving at. It is a classic tragedy where for a race as superior as the Numenoreans, their ultimate downfall was their arrogance and pride.

Indeed - and this happens even without the Shadow (as represented by individuals like the Witch-king or Sauron) interfering - which is an important point. The Númenóreans are perfectly capable of bringing about their own downfall without external "help". The breakup of Arnor or Gondor's Kin-strife are the primary examples of the respective "falls" of the Dúnedain in the Realms-in-Exile: They are showing the same weaknesses as other humans - only the consequences are more grave.

And I see no problem in incorporating or using other games' interpretations if they pass the test of whether they reflect what Tolkien wrote about the subject in question and put it good words.

I guess in the end it all breaks down to how we define the word "corruption" and what it precisely means, as it could be used in a wide array so that our ideas probably are the same, but we use different words to describe it

EDIT: Inmterestingly the only example of corruption of the Númenóreans en masse, i.e. as a people, is from the late Second Age when Sauron deceived the mass of the people into Melkor worship and the foolish (and disastrous) attack on Aman. From the Third Age, we have no positive testimony of a similar successful corruption of the faithful Dúnedain as a whole (individual exceptions - named or not - always apply of course). Whenever Sauron's servants deal with them, it is through force. It could be deducted that they have learned their lessons concerning the tempting promises of the Dark Lord and his minions (i.e. the typical type of promises - even if it is not clear from whom they come). In the Third Age, both the Northern and Southern Dúnedain get thoroughly beaten by the various servants of Sauron and their power is ever diminished, but their losses are not through tempting corruption but warfare and disease.
Their own weaknesses and faults is another matter. Their pride often works to their disadvantage and the forces of the Shadow in their various incarnations (=knowingly serving the Dark Lord or only indirectly and unknowingly under his shadow) are able to exploit this of course.

Cheers
Tolwen

I'd agree that Dunedain aren't more susceptible to corruption than any other race of man. Many may have succumbed to corruption (through their own actions, mundane, and/or Shadow influences) but it's simply because they often occupy positions of higher status then other men and therefore this supports the old adage "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". I don't see any evidence that Dunedain are a special case; when they are corrupted it is relative to the power they hold. Just as a common man turns to banditry and murder, a corrupted Dunedain would turn to something commensurate with his position. On the occasions he decided to do so, Sauron didn't target Numenoreans and Dunedain because of what they were, and that they were 'easy marks' when compared to other men, it was because of the positions and power they held - ie, it was worth Sauron's effort and time to corrupt kings of men rather than their farmers.

I don't believe there is any evidence with regard to the Dunedain being inherently weaker than other men, with regards to corruption, it's just common sense for Sauron and his servants to attempt to subvert leaders and those holding power than lesser individuals. And because of their nobility and lineage, Dunedain have historically held those positions more than other races of men.

Yes, good summaries here, guys. I guess it is too much of a stretch to say the lesser men of the ages were less corruptible because of the ways they reacted to his dominion over Middle Earth (ie. utterly frightened of his powers rather than joining him by choice like the Numenoreans).
Your point that the Dunedain faithful in Eriador really never were corrupted by Sauron is right on; I had thought I read in Tolkien's works that they were. After reading sections again, there is no evidence to support the ideas of their corruption in Eriador I was purporting.
In the end, like you say Rich, some fell into corruption because of their positions of power, not because they were more easily corruptible.
I've enjoyed this conversation regarding this rule I proposed; obviously, there is too much of a flawed argument there. In the end, I'm just trying to help make the TOR cultures as reflective of Tolkien's works as possible.
BTW, I appreciate all your resources Rich - well done.
best regards