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Rich H wrote: Under the current rules, I think if someone wants a mithril item then I'd simply get them to save up the XP for it and once it was fully paid for (obviously that would mean costing the item properties) I'd include it in my game so the character could then acquire it. Or, you could let them have it once they'd paid half the costs with the agreement from the player that all future XP had to be put towards paying the debt before getting anything else. I've done both in other games with similar systems for rewards/items - eg, Exalted.

While this is a good solution given the rules, it also reminds me of another shortcoming of the Reward system: part of the fun of getting powerful items is that it's unexpected. You find that sword forged in Gondolin in the troll cave, for example.

The Reward system is nice because it lets players customize without being subject to the whim of the LM or the fancies of premade adventure authors. But it also eliminates surprise.

According to RAW, there is never any reason to be tingling with anticipation when exploring deserted ruins and finding an old chest. ("Maybe this is where the LM will plant that Fell sword I told him I want. But, if not, it'll show up regardless.")

Nor will a grateful patron/ruler/etc. ever give you an unexpected reward.

Treasure Points just don't give me the same goosebumps.

(Not arguing with you at all, just riffing on this theme because it's been nagging at me.)

Elfcrusher wrote:(Not arguing with you at all, just riffing on this theme because it's been nagging at me.)

I know and I completely agree with you!

Rich H wrote:Kitchens Killed: 5

By the way, how many Kitchens before you get a Reward? What are you going to pick?

Elfcrusher wrote: While this is a good solution given the rules, it also reminds me of another shortcoming of the Reward system: part of the fun of getting powerful items is that it's unexpected. You find that sword forged in Gondolin in the troll cave, for example.

The Reward system is nice because it lets players customize without being subject to the whim of the LM or the fancies of premade adventure authors. But it also eliminates surprise.

Although I do agree that the rewards system takes (some of) the unexpected out, it allows the players to contribute their ideas in a way that most games do not. This is what I like about TOR; it is more collaborative than most games. You can let players come up with all sorts of ideas and stories for their rewards; heck, this may even inspire scenarios.

Elfcrusher wrote: According to RAW, there is never any reason to be tingling with anticipation when exploring deserted ruins and finding an old chest. ("Maybe this is where the LM will plant that Fell sword I told him I want. But, if not, it'll show up regardless.")

Nor will a grateful patron/ruler/etc. ever give you an unexpected reward.

As my other posts indicate, I believe that loremasters should not become slaves of the rewards system. Want to put a mithril chainmail armor in the next treasure? Go ahead and let the characters (and players) argue about who's going to get it! You can also take it away or have the characters relinquish it (payment for a weregild, characters sell it and use the money for a good cause, etc.), something that the rewards system does not really allow.

Rich H wrote:If you mean how does it physically transform from one thing into another - it doesn't. Unless it's Optimus Mithril.

Exactly! So, then how do you explain a PC with a set of ordinary chain mail in one game then over the next FP he add the third quaility to it then "poof" it is suddenly Mithril chain? He didn't say he was going to go looking for a mithril shirt (good luck with that) or that he found a smith that could make it for him (and that) or that he was spending the money (Treasure points)...how many treasure points for the Shire again? But, yet he has a nice shiny mithril shirt now.

The other things like keen and fell I can kind of see as being ok in a game if I squint hard enough. If the player said that he was looking for a master smith on his FP then I can see it realistically being added. The smith improved the edge or even replaced the the blade with one of better quality metal that holds an edge better or added more weight to the blade. The problem arises when the PC starts with a storied family item; for example one of my pbp playes came up with a back story for his sword; making it a special item right of the get go. So, how do you explain changes made in that case. Like Aragorn, this player isn't going to give up his family heirloom to get a "better" sword with a new quality, and probably isn't going to be too keen on having a smith tinker with it when they don't absolutely have to.

Perhaps what is required is to stipulate that a PC has to come up with a back story to explain how the new chagnes were added dring the FP.

Perhaps this is the exact same conversation that Francisco had with his team, and they agreed, for all these reasons, that Mithral was not really viable to be worked in to the game.

Elfcrusher wrote:

Rich H wrote:Kitchens Killed: 5

By the way, how many Kitchens before you get a Reward? What are you going to pick?

Andrew has yet to confirm when but I'm hoping for an advance copy of either Rivendell or the Revised Rules.

Beran wrote:Exactly! So, then how do you explain a PC with a set of ordinary chain mail in one game then over the next FP he add the third quaility to it then "poof" it is suddenly Mithril chain?

I don't. It doesn't happen in my game and I wouldn't agree with it happening in anyone else's as a solution.

Beran wrote:He didn't say he was going to go looking for a mithril shirt (good luck with that) or that he found a smith that could make it for him (and that) or that he was spending the money (Treasure points)...how many treasure points for the Shire again? But, yet he has a nice shiny mithril shirt now.

Where's this shirt come from again, Beran? If the theoretical LM has allowed it in his game then he's already come up with his houserule for it so how do you know whether he's found it, made it, or bought it? Or not?

Lets not lose sight here as it looks like we've (collectively) started critiquing the RAW here for something that is possibly going to happen in some theoretical gaming group because the players and LM in that make believe group want to have a Mithril shirt. It's up to them to come up with a solution that works for them as the RAW doesn't currently cover it. Some decent enough options have been offered up here, not all of them are going to be acceptable to all LMs, but one or two are - even if they need a little tweaking.

Beran wrote:The other things like keen and fell I can kind of see as being ok in a game if I squint hard enough. If the player said that he was looking for a master smith on his FP then I can see it realistically being added. The smith improved the edge or even replaced the the blade with one of better quality metal that holds an edge better or added more weight to the blade. The problem arises when the PC starts with a storied family item; for example one of my pbp playes came up with a back story for his sword; making it a special item right of the get go. So, how do you explain changes made in that case. Like Aragorn, this player isn't going to give up his family heirloom to get a "better" sword with a new quality, and probably isn't going to be too keen on having a smith tinker with it when they don't absolutely have to.

He doesn't have to, like I said in a previous post (as have others) the quality was always there. The player then purchases it with XP and so it then becomes 'active' in the characteristics of the weapon (and therefore the character) as it's now important (due to the quality being purchased). Just like how character traits can be swapped out.

As a side note, and this is worth stating as I've struggled for years with some games, if you don't like these kind of non-simulation type solutions then it may be time to take a look at whether TOR is the right game for you as if there are too many of these issues that you have with the game then it may be time to call it quits. TOR has some very abstract concepts which often don't lend themselves to 'real world' solutions or explanations. I see that as a strength of the design but I can see why others would think exactly the opposite.

Beran wrote:Perhaps what is required is to stipulate that a PC has to come up with a back story to explain how the new chagnes were added dring the FP.

Not necessarily. As above, the reasoning can simply be that the quality has been paid for so it's now of mechanical importance within the game.

Rocmistro wrote:Perhaps this is the exact same conversation that Francisco had with his team, and they agreed, for all these reasons, that Mithral was not really viable to be worked in to the game.

I'd be gobsmacked if Mithril wasn't included in the Magical Treasure rules within Rivendell, wouldn't you?

Rich H wrote:

Rocmistro wrote:Perhaps this is the exact same conversation that Francisco had with his team, and they agreed, for all these reasons, that Mithral was not really viable to be worked in to the game.

I'd be gobsmacked if Mithril wasn't included in the Magical Treasure rules within Rivendell, wouldn't you?

Rich, there is so much stuff that I hope makes it into Rivendell, that I think, statistically, I can't help but end up gobsmacked by something.