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zedturtle wrote:Well yeah, this would be in addition to the normal Standing rules (i.e. 12 treasure for Standing 1, et cetera)...

Also, I asked 1?? (XP) per undertaking in the parentheses, but I understand just the three undertakings is a lot of opportunity cost as well.

I'm not sure that (all) Patrons should be involved; why should the character's home culture care what the hero did for some foreign lord?

I do like all of your suggestions for the sub-quest, with the possible question on the Slayer. Then again, I've never liked the slayer calling (for ME) as much as the others.

I think a hero's home culture cares because it reflects well on them. I would think a community would be proud knowing that it was their nurturing and support that produced a person of such quality, who's courage put him in the path of harm and defended people against Orcs or saved lives or what have you. I like the idea of Standing in the RAW, and how it's used and implemented, but I also think it's written with a very Hobbitish bias in mind. Don't you think a Beorning culture would idolize one of their own if they knew he had routed a nest of Orcs? Or wouldn't a Dwarven culture celebrate a hero who recovered an artifact like the Arkentstone?

I also agree that all Patrons should not be involved, and they don't need to be involved all the time. That's why the more I think about it, the more I would only weave this in for a character who did the "Meet Patron" undertaking.

Agreed on the Slayer calling. It's a little funky.

Maybe a combined version of these two ideas. XP for completing calling related side quest or goals, whether Patron imposed or self imposed, and then maybe half cost to increase standing via XP.

Been thinking about this for a couple days, Zed.

Sadly, I still think that these two ideas are going to go awry:

-rewarding bonus XP for a "sub quest",
-then expecting heroes to spend xp to increase their standing score.

I would not award XP for a "calling" subquest. Because the fact of the matter is, I, as a player, am going to be too tempted to put that XP into standing but into something more mechanically tangible. (Weapon skills, Valor/Wisdom). And I think that holds true for many players.

But even aside from that, I think XP for Standing is not a mechanic that reflects well in society. Most people of a community don't care how experienced you are in determining your value. In fact, many community members, in a civilized society, celebrate more highly the "ordinary hero" - the person who accomplished great things or dared great things without any special training or skillsets. These people are celebrated because what they do achieve they achieve on pure courage and love for their community, and what can be more ennobling than that?

Under the current rules, if you hit the jackpot and then gave a million dollars out to your local community, you'd be the big man, celebrated and loved and thought of as a philanthropist. Everyone would praise you, and it wouldn't matter if you were a Navy Seal or SBS Veteran. Ok - that more or less makes sense.

Under my proposed solution, I'm suggesting that's not the only way to do that. You could also be love and praised in your community by reflecting well on them. By climbing Mt. Everest (Wanderer), taking out Bin Laden (Slayer), rescuing children from a burning building (Warden), finding the cure for Cancer (Scholar) or recovering the Ark of the Covenant (Treasure Hunter), you would also be granted the Key to your home city.

To me, the idea of standing is particularly linked to the deeds you perform, regardless of how equipped or talented you are in doing it. In fluff terms, I'm not sure what "investing XP" into your Standing Rate would actually represent (doing work for your community, perhaps?) but it feels imprecise to me.

I suspect you're right, more details when I have a real keyboard...

Hi guys,

I've given away a few free points of Standing over the course of the game so far on occasions that characters have done things that would legitimately raise their stature in the eyes of their culture. I would also take Standing away if the character ignored their obligations that come with Stadning, too.

Regards,

Shane

Am I the only one who thinks the easiest solution is "award more treasure?"

There is some precedent of lowering the threshold to up Standing as a result of the characters' actions. That would more directly get results than messing with the XP economy. You also avoid the issue of losing something that you spent XP for (as Standing can go down as well).

doctheweasel wrote:Am I the only one who thinks the easiest solution is "award more treasure?"

No, you're not.

doctheweasel wrote:Am I the only one who thinks the easiest solution is "award more treasure?"

There is some precedent of lowering the threshold to up Standing as a result of the characters' actions. That would more directly get results than messing with the XP economy. You also avoid the issue of losing something that you spent XP for (as Standing can go down as well).

The challenge that I'm having is that we are running through Tales right now... Baldor has paid the PCs 2 Treasure, Beorn 1. One character has a coin worth 0.5 Treasure from my "get everyone together" narration. Thats it. The PCs are on thd poor side of Mirkwood and I don't really see how to add more Treasure, nor do I feel like thats appropriate to the feel of the game.

And yes, I'm certainly more on the side (now) of adding ways to get a "discount" on Standing than giving out more XP. I'm glad that y'all spoke up, its the kind of feedback I was hoping for.

I'm the same, I just don't hand out much Treasure if any. Despite the fact that the Hobbit is a big treasure hunt of sorts it's not anywhere near one of the main elements that I take from that book and the LotR trilogy and is therefore not something my campaign focusses on.

Personally, my Renown system works just fine. I award increases to Renown based on deed within the game and therefore don't have any considerations of spending treasure or XP in order to increase it.

doctheweasel wrote:Am I the only one who thinks the easiest solution is "award more treasure?"

There is some precedent of lowering the threshold to up Standing as a result of the characters' actions. That would more directly get results than messing with the XP economy. You also avoid the issue of losing something that you spent XP for (as Standing can go down as well).

It might be the "easiest" solution, but it's certainly not the most appropriate. In my face to face group, I ran TfW up to (but not including) Darkness in the Marshes. After 4 adventures, (all of which were made more robust by my own material), I think each player might have had a maximum of 4-6 Treasure. That's after 4 adventures of the first campaign book, they had not even enough treasure to get them 1/2 way to the first Standing rating. I realize that the Treasure rewards get big in the last couple adventures, almost excessively so, but I also think that's a problem. I don't like the idea of adventurer's going from "0" standing to "3" standing in one adventure.

So let's do the math here, and assume 5 Heroes:

The Marsh Bell: 6 per
5 points of Treasure (Gloin's Reward)
1-2 points each (Optional Marsh Dweller reward)

Don't Leave the Path: 3 per
2 points of Treasure (Baldor's Reward)
and -1 Treasure reduction if they get hit with the Spooked Pony hazard.*
1 point of Treasure if they Fellowship appropriately and return Wolfbiter.

Leaves and Stewed Hobbit: 1 per
1 point of Treasure each (Dody's Reward)
- +1 point of Treasure (each?) for finding the Night-Wight's gemstones.*
- +10 points of Treasure (total) for finding and retrieving the Goblin Treasure Hoard.*

Kinstrife and Dark Tidings: 1 per
1 point of Treasure each (Beorn's Reward)

Those Who Tarry No Longer: average it at 2 per
3 points of Treasure each (if Irime lives)
1 point each (if she dies)

Darkness in the Marshes: 0 per
none

Crossings of Celduin: with all the variables, average it to 8 per
1 point of Treasure for winning the Song Contest.*
1 point of Treasure Big Win or Big Lose on Game of Chance.*
5 points of Treasure for Winning Archery, Riding and/or Wrestling contest.
25 points of Treasure for Lockmand's Chest*
3*/5/10* Treasure each depending on the quality of their success.

Watchtower on the Heath: 44 per
20 points of Treasure each (Dain's Reward)
200 points of Treasure (Secret Vault)

* = Rewards or Options which (in my opinion), the Heroes are unlikely to earn or receive, for one reason or another.

So that averages 65 Treasure per adventurer ASSUMING everything goes right, they make all their Social Encounter tests, etc. That might seem like a lot, but consider that 65 Treasure per adventurer will get you to Standing Rating of 2 (12+24=36) and a healthy portion towards achieving Standing Rating of 3 (36).

So after destroying the Gibbet Kind and stopping Raenar, you are considered respectable citizens. Good work! Now go kill more Orcs to keep our community safe.