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... Some good analysis there Roc.

It's pretty much reinforced my view that I really think that Holdings should be developed more and through them Standing increased - ie, developing the Holding through investment of treasure, in game events, etc.

Rocmistro wrote: So let's do the math here, and assume 5 Heroes:

The Marsh Bell: 6 per
5 points of Treasure (Gloin's Reward)
1-2 points each (Optional Marsh Dweller reward)

[snip of much]

You left out the potential for looting goblin camps, etc., while travelling. A goblin band might have a point or two with when traveling; a typical chief's horde in camp is 10 points, so that's easily adding a point or two each while traveling.

Looking at it mechanistically, showing very math that proves you're doing it wrong, then complaining that it's broken, seems really counter productive.

aramis wrote:You left out the potential for looting goblin camps, etc., while travelling. A goblin band might have a point or two with when traveling; a typical chief's horde in camp is 10 points, so that's easily adding a point or two each while traveling.

Looking at it mechanistically, showing very math that proves you're doing it wrong, then complaining that it's broken, seems really counter productive.

I'm sorry. I'm having a hard time parsing your last statement there. Roc pointed out that a group, playing Tales as written, gets 65 Treasure. In what way is that "doing it wrong"?

In what way is looting goblin camps heroic? That starts moving towards "D&D-ification" too much to me. I'll admit that the troll encounter in the Hobbit is very similar and can be used to somewhat justify this. I think I would have no problem with the heroes taking advantage of a similar situation once. But if they chase every goblin down and rifle through its pockets for loose change, we've got a problem.

aramis wrote:You left out the potential for looting goblin camps, etc., while travelling. A goblin band might have a point or two with when traveling; a typical chief's horde in camp is 10 points, so that's easily adding a point or two each while traveling.

10 points of Treasure is something that you wouldn't pick up while 'travelling'; that's the same as the hoard in "Of Leaves...". I'd also question, looting goblin bodies for some coin. My players' characters have never once done such a thing but even assuming they have you're talking about 1 or 2 points here and there when to raise a PC from Standing 0 to 3 you need a total of 72 TP. Also remember that if a PC is absent from his homeland he also needs to spend treasure to maintain it. Not as much a raising it but there's that to be factored in as well.

aramis wrote:Looking at it mechanistically, showing very math that proves you're doing it wrong, then complaining that it's broken, seems really counter productive

Rocmistro was detailing objective factually based Treasure procurement within TfW, you're adding extra bits that are subjective and based on personal experience. His maths therefore isn't wrong, you're adding extra considerations; which many of us would reject as options (eg, looting dead goblin bodies) so can't really be applied if we want to look at things objectively.

His math shows that there is plenty of treasure available, and he's complaining not enough is available; he's also ignoring that there is potential to add treasure (and Enc) along the way.

And then complaining it's broken for lack of available treasure.

I just find it hard to grasp why he's complaining about not enough.

You've missed the point, Aramis. Rocmistro is stating that the Treasure offered is only enough to get characters halfway to a Standing of 3, assuming that it is all spent in such a way, and that being a 'respected citizen' is hardly representative of what has been achieved. He doesn't like the amount of Treasure that is available in the game but even if you buy into the concept of treasure accumulation it doesn't really support improvement in Standing to his, and my, satisfaction.

It's the whole basis of the thread's existence - ie, looking at other ways to improve Standing other than Treasure.

Standing could work off of a different economy than Treasure, but throwing it into the XP economy isn't the answer.

I'd suggest using "Renown Points." You get them when you earn XP, and spend them exclusively to raise Standing (Treasure can be converted to Renown Points at 1:1). Maybe have the baseline earned equal to XP, then adjust up or down say 2–5 points based if the character's deeds.

The math works out here, since it takes 252 points to get to Standing 6, which is a lot of adventuring.

doctheweasel wrote:Standing could work off of a different economy than Treasure, but throwing it into the XP economy isn't the answer.

I'd suggest using "Renown Points." You get them when you earn XP, and spend them exclusively to raise Standing (Treasure can be converted to Renown Points at 1:1). Maybe have the baseline earned equal to XP, then adjust up or down say 2–5 points based if the character's deeds.

The math works out here, since it takes 252 points to get to Standing 6, which is a lot of adventuring.

That's a good and interesting solution... it parallels neatly with the XP expectations for a character's career. I might just use that idea.

doctheweasel wrote:Standing could work off of a different economy than Treasure, but throwing it into the XP economy isn't the answer.

I'd suggest using "Renown Points." You get them when you earn XP, and spend them exclusively to raise Standing (Treasure can be converted to Renown Points at 1:1). Maybe have the baseline earned equal to XP, then adjust up or down say 2–5 points based if the character's deeds.

The math works out here, since it takes 252 points to get to Standing 6, which is a lot of adventuring.

Likewise, I think that is a good idea.