On the Nature of Evil

[DaviSalles]

Going back to the subject of the nature of evil on LoTR, I do think that all orcs are evil, even the babies and mommies. The reason for that is regarding the importance of the free will. Orcs and all evil creature made by Morgoth or Sauron do not have free will, therefore they may not choose to be good or evil, that was chosen for them before they were born.

However other creatures made by Illuvitar, these have the free will, and are able to choose if they are going to be good or evil. However, as stated before, the good path is a difficult path, and pride, anger and arrogance are often emotions that lead to evil.

I would even say more, I think that Orcs and other creatures which do not have free will, they also don't have sous and they will not travel to the Hall of Mandos after death, they will just vanish from the world. My ideas for these are similar to the way Catholic Church think about animals (and use to think about some humans in this way too). Also there some theologizes who believe that the free will is prove of the existence of the soul.

[Tolwen]

Going back to the subject of the nature of evil on LoTR, I do think that all orcs are evil, even the babies and mommies. The reason for that is regarding the importance of the free will.

In the 'Myths Transformed' in the HoMe10, Tolkien discusses this and comes to another conclusion:

But even before this wickedness of Morgoth [his way of creating orcs] was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery.
Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost. This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.

By the means of Men and Elves, Orcs may be irredeemable, but they still retain their status as Children of Ilúvatar, however twisted and corrupted.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Elmoth]

I cannot recall a single instance in the Silmarillion where orcs were taken prisoners to jail instead of just mass murdered by elves and men.

[Tolwen]

I cannot recall a single instance in the Silmarillion where orcs were taken prisoners to jail instead of just mass murdered by elves and men.

Please note that Tolkien differentiates between theory and reality. And even more importantly, he does not speak of taking orcs prisoner to jail them, but interrogation - and the means which were not allowed even for the above mentioned causes. It is one thing to take prisoners for information (where the subsequent fate is the subject of Tolkien's example above) and another for jailing them (or taking them as POW), i.e. permanent (or long-term) imprisonment.

On a more abstract level, the lack of evidence for something is no proof that it does not exist. This is a famous logical fallacy known as the "argument from ignorance" (argumentum ad ignorantiam), for which Wikipedia has a good entry.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Glorelendil]

I cannot recall a single instance in the Silmarillion where orcs were taken prisoners to jail instead of just mass murdered by elves and men.

Nor can I recall a single instance where elves or men "mass murdered" any orcs, meaning killing them after the orcs had surrendered, or killing females and young.

Then again I haven't read Simarillion in a long time, so I'm receptive to correction.

[Rocmistro]

Not that Tolwen needed my support of his scholarship, but he is correct here.

The issue then becomes whether or not, as Loremaster, to put your players in a position that they need to be debating this (in character or out). I speak only from experience in suggesting that this not a great use of game time. Many useless and inane debates were had by me and my gaming groups over the years by attempting to re-create conclusions reached by better minds. Read Hobbes, Locke, Aquinas, Milton, Nietzsce if you want a thorough examination of evil.

Elfcrusher: I think your observation precisely illustrates my point.

[Elmoth]

IIRC there are 2 descriptions in the big battles where the orcs surrender and try to flee and they are hunted down like animals by the victorious elves. Been a while since i read the silmarillion myself, though. In general the feel that the text conveys it is one of total war of mutual annihilation.

[poosticks7]

"We were all orcs in the Great War."

think that answers Tolkien's view on orcs.

[Arthadan]

Quite interesting thread!

About Radagast, I have always imagine that after trying hard to help the Free Peoples, they let him down big time (maybe leading to his capture and torture by some great evil which would explain his eccentric personality or leading to the destruction of the Mannish settlement of Rhosgobel). Then he would focus in the protection of plants and animals because they are also in danger and they have proven to be more trustworthy than Men. Then, he would fail because lack of perseverance but he wouldn't fall to evil.

Regarding the Orc babies thing, I think is quite clear they will grow up to be "enemies" (unless the PCs want to raise them and teach them to be good which is theoritecally posible because they are not inherently evil). Role-playing Middle-earth characters, I think some of them would kill them because they have suffered much at the hands of Orcs and these would be no different. But I think it would worth some Shadow points (after all killing a defenseless enemy doesn't sound heroic at all).

[Corvo]

(...)Role-playing Middle-earth characters, I think some of them would kill them because they have suffered much at the hands of Orcs and these would be no different. But I think it would worth some Shadow points (after all killing a defenseless enemy doesn't sound heroic at all).

About killing defenseless goblins... in the old forum there was an interesting thread. My feelings at the time were pretty similar to the one expressed here by Athadan and others, so I was surprised when Francesco framed the whole affair differently.

If someone can find it, it can give an interesting perspective.