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Given that the system has two different "leveling" mechanisms, what do you think is a good ratio between the two?

When I LM, I try to be pretty generous with AP, but the AP:XP ratio still only seems to be about 2:1. However, when I play, my characters have a ratio closer to 1:1. I try to pick out useful traits and try to use them as much as I can, but it seems like my common skills are lagging well behind my weapon skills and wisdom/valour. This is with me having at least one good skill in each skill group. Does anyone else have this problem? Is this how the game is supposed to work?

I figure the average adventurer has at least 8 common skills that they want to devote AP to. On the other hand a weapon, back-up weapon, wisdom and valour are only four things to put XP into. Also consider that common skills are more expensive than weapon skills/wisdom/valour (at lower skill levels, they're about twice as expensive). Given all this, I would think that the ratio of AP:XP should be about 4:1 (at least mechanically).

In your games, what is the AP:XP ratio? What do you think the AP:XP ratio should be idealy?

I tend toward a 2:1 ratio of AP to XP. In order to counteract the issues you've seen, I allow players to spend XP as AP but not the other way round. It seems to help a lot, it's always player choice and is insidious in the right way: the player just needs to spend one or two XP as AP to hit their total, as long as they do that every fellowship phase it works out great. I'm pretty generous with both AP and XP but I do AP by the book so that players are forced to use more than one or two skills, they have to branch out in order to fill those dots in.

I've thought about allowing players to spend XP as AP as well. But I can't say that me or the people I play with would ever spend XP as AP unless we already had our weapons skills, wisdom, and valour maxed out at 6. I guess it can't hurt to have that option though.

Morgoth wrote:I've thought about allowing players to spend XP as AP as well. But I can't say that me or the people I play with would ever spend XP as AP unless we already had our weapons skills, wisdom, and valour maxed out at 6. I guess it can't hurt to have that option though.

Well, like I said, it's insidious... You're doing your Fellowship Phase, you're one AP point away from being able to raise a skill and the LM has been hammering the need for that skill all last Adventuring Phase. Meanwhile you're one or two points shy of an upgrade via XP. Surely it won't hurt to use one XP as AP... that just means you've got to really make sure to get a bonus XP in the next Adventuring Phase, and that's not too hard, is it?

I have encountered the same problem (ap/xp ratio between 2/1 and 1/1), so I choose to use the same advancement cost for both xp and ap. Easier to remember, by the way.

Corvo wrote:I have encountered the same problem (ap/xp ratio between 2/1 and 1/1), so I choose to use the same advancement cost for both xp and ap. Easier to remember, by the way.

That's actually a pretty good idea. I might try that. Another thing I might try is to give extra AP at the end of each session equal to the XP they earn.

I them always a basic amount of AP at the end of the game like 2 or 3 APs plus 2 XP (3 XP if is the end of something big)

Morgoth, I *think* the ratio should be closer to the 2:1 mark.

An adventure is supposed to last about 3 sessions, per the book (I forget the page and I'm not going to reference that at the moment). Of course, everyone's gaming sessions last different lengths. For my group, a typical session is about 3 hours (my buddies get to my house around 6 PM, we all goof off, order pizza, play with the dogs, catch-up until about 7 PM, and then we actually *play* from 7-10 PM). I think this is *fairly* average for grown ups with wives and kids so forth.

The AB/LMG says 1 XP per session + 1 XP if the group makes significant progress towards their goal. So let's call that 5.

Then it gives the LM the option to award extra XP, not more than about 1 for every 2 gaming sessions. So there's another bonus 1.5

If you average that out to about 6.5 XP per adventure, and then you look at the chart on page 120 for retirement, it assumes earning roughly 13 XP per year for 15 years. That suggests to me about 2 adventures per year of 6.5 XP each = 13 XP per year.

Now an adventure phase can see a max of 18 AP per adventure. The likelihood, is that the "tier 3" APs won't get filled up, at least not all of them. And in some cases, the tier 2 APs won't either, for failure on the skill roll or just a lack of opportunity. So I'm thinking about 12 AP's claimed per adventure is about right. If we double that for 2 per year, you're look at about 24 AP per year.

So, 24 AP / 13 XP per year equals roughly a 2:1 ratio, which sounds about right to me. With that award, a brand new adventurer can raise his primary weapon to 3 (6 XP) and his primary "attribute" (wisdom or valor) to 3 (6 XP). He can also raise 2 common skills from 2> 3 (12 AP each), or 3 common skills from 1 to 2 (8 APs each) or some combination thereof equaling 6 "pips" worth of advancement. This seems to me about what the designers had in mind.

What I have seen in playing the game, is that players are not taking advantage of the AP system and/or Loremasters probably not being generous enough with awarding AP's. This had led to a lag, in almost all the games I've seen/been a part of, in common skills. I think this is an important subject to discuss because I do believe there is a way to play the game as the author's intended, and I think the 2:1 ratio is very close to it. If players and/or loremasters are not hitting that ratio (or close to it), I think they risk seeing a lopsided hero development which will affect their assessment of the merits of the game. So I would encourage all players to try to get there. Award an extra "generic" AP pool if you have to, remind your players to invoke traits on successful tests, etc.

Rocmistro wrote:Morgoth, I *think* the ratio should be closer to the 2:1 mark.

So, 24 AP / 13 XP per year equals roughly a 2:1 ratio, which sounds about right to me. With that award, a brand new adventurer can raise his primary weapon to 3 (6 XP) and his primary "attribute" (wisdom or valor) to 3 (6 XP). He can also raise 2 common skills from 2> 3 (12 AP each), or 3 common skills from 1 to 2 (8 APs each) or some combination thereof equaling 6 "pips" worth of advancement. This seems to me about what the designers had in mind.

At this rate, when an adventure retires after 15 years he will have Main Weapon 6, Wisdom 6, Valour 6, Secondary Weapon 4 (Assuming starting values of 2, 2, 1, 1 respectively) costing total XP of 195 (13 XP x 15 years).

After this time he will be able to have 5 skills at ranks 6 if he completely neglects all other skills (assuming he starts with 2 ranks in each skill) costing a total of 360 AP (24 AP x 15 years).

So is this a balanced character? I guess he's not too far off. But I feel like he's slightly lacking in skills in comparison to combat. He is completely ignoring one whole skill group, not to mention secondary skills. In a party of four, you would be able to have someone in the party with 6 ranks in every skill, but then most of the characters would be ignoring the skills that are universally important (travel for fatigue checks, battle for success dice, craft/song for getting rid of shadow, etc). I feel like only being good at 5 skills is rather lacking for a character at the pinnacle of heroic achievement. But maybe not too far off.

I think that is also a valuable analysis; one I had not considered.

My personal feeling is that 5 common skills at Rank 6 might be specializing too much, especially with 4 favored skills and the propensity of traits to grant auto-successes.

What about this is a model for "proficiency" (this assumes 8 common skills starting at rank 2, which may not even be possible for all cultures):

Skill Rank 4 in your 4 Favoured Skills (the thought being that should generally grant success most of the time, and where it does not, your higher favored attribute score should be enough to carry you through). = 112 AP
Skill Rank 5 in 2 additional common skills = 96
Skill Rank 6 in your 2 trademark common skills (the one's that really define you) = 144 AP

That equals 352 AP, a little bit leftover to push a couple other skills.

This gives you 8 common skills with Rank 4 or higher, the Rank 4 ones also being your favored skills and thus pretty reliable. I mean, I don't know, that seems pretty balanced and acceptable with respect to the idea of parity with weapons/wisdom/valour.

Thoughts?