Esgaroth during the War of the Ring

[poosticks7]

The forces of Dale DID retreat to Erebor during the War of the Ring so obviously Dale defences where not adequate to repel the Easterling armies. As a side note the Men of Dale and the Dwarves of Erebor decided to march out onto the field to face the Easterlings - not sure why, might be worth discussing

Lake Town was likely neutralised or taken by the Enemy - you would not leave a possible enemy at your back, plus as Tolwen said it makes an excellent staging area.

I'll just point out that the Elves of Mirkwood were also under attack at this point as well, another reason to neutralise Lake Town - otherwise they could send relief to their allies. Remember Sauron had been planning this for awhile - yes he rushed it a little bit but I believe he and his generals would have considered all factors.

I wonder if the Iron Hills were attacked as well - there is no mention of it but it makes sense. You don't want a bunch of pesky force marching Dwarves turning up. (of course the Iron HIlls may have been severely reduced in population with the refounding of the Kingdom Under the Mountain I suppose.

[Tolwen]

I think you are short changing Dale quite a bit. My following assumptions are based on PJs production design of Dale for the movies, as they make sense to me.

I see where we have differing assumptions
IMO for a thorough consideration, Tolkiens own ideas should have precedence over secondary sources. Fortunately, he drew several pictures of Erebor and one of them with the ruins of Dale depicted. There are a colour and B/W version, the latter can be seen here. Regardless of detail, it shows a town lying in a bend of the Celduin on practically flat terrain. Being situated between two mountain spurs near a small river, it makes sense IMO.

Tactically, the three-day Battle of Dale took place in this valley, with the allies being finally defeated. In this situation, there is no hope of holding a town like Dale, with the remnants of a beaten army (very likely quite low on morale) as the only available serious defenders. The Easterlings probably had their siege machinery (including ladders, towers etc.) ready for use in the rear once the pitched battle was won (or already in use; see below).
In this situation, storming Dale would be quite easy.
As we have no details of the battle, it might be that Dale was incorporated into the allies' order of battle, an anchor for their line. In this case, it would probably already have taken a thorough beating during the battle.

The quite contrasting difference between the PJ version of Middle-earth and Tolkien's own vision (sometimes fortunately visualised) makes me very careful with taking PJ's interpretations as correct or even fitting. They are mostly pleasing to behold (which is their primary purpose as a part of a movie), but often - IMHO - don't hit the mark of Tolkien's ideas very well. The PJ Dale version is such a case (again - IMHO). Its romanesque style (and inhabitants) is not very evocative as a "germanic" Northman settlement. IMO it should take much more style from the Rohirrim depictions. In the movie it looked more like a "northern" version of Minas Tirith (which was perhaps the intention).

In any case, I don't see it as a very useful interpretation given the original evidence.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Beran]

First, I wasn't comparing the overall look of the city, but the placement of it in the local topography

Not a really an accurate picture to derive defensive capibilities from. Also, you have to admit that the Profs area of expertise wasn't geology. But I'll go along with you on this. To go with what you present really doesn't change the defensibility of Dale any. You have presented a town with 3 three sides covered by fairly high embankments, which are almost as good as beng on a hill (it was after all part to the strategy behind Helm's deep). Again, the picture doesn't show anything useful on the design of the city, but I still would assume that there was some kind of wall, and the fact there are ruins noted in the picture suggests that the majority of the structures would have been stone. So, I really don't see that my original assumptions were that far off. Perhaps, I would shorten the siege to 3 months rather then 6, but that would depend on the fortifications of the city.

Either way the smart thing to do would have been to evacuate the civilians and most of the armed forces of Dale to Erebor (given that it was the strongest fortification in the area) and probably leave a small force to anchor the defensive line for a short time and do a little damage to the Easterling forces. Not saying what was done in the books, but what I would have done in a similar situation. As there must have been some troops left in Dale, otherwise why call it the Battle of Dale? There must have been some major fighting going on in the vicinity.

[beckett]

I think you are short changing Dale quite a bit. My following assumptions are based on PJs production design of Dale for the movies, as they make sense to me.

1) Given its proximity to mountainous terrain Dale is probably built on a hill (or a series of hills).
2) It appears to have a proper wall.
3) It is mostly of stone construction.

1) and 2) are valuable force multipliers. Not only does having the high ground make it harder for invaders to approach the walls, but this is where the longbowmen of Dale and Lake Town would shine. And the stone construction reduces the threat of fire...

I don't believe number one is a true statement. If we look at the text of The Hobbit, emphasis mine:

There the river, after winding a wide loop over the valley of Dale, turned from the Mountain on its road to the Lake, flowing swiftly and noisily. Its bank was bare and rocky, tall and steep above the stream; and gazing out from it over the narrow water, foaming and splashing among many boulders, they could see in the wide valley shadowed by the Mountain's arms the grey ruins of ancient houses, towers, and walls.

"There lies all that is left of Dale," said Balin.

It appears to me that Dale was not built on a hill or a series of hills. According to the text, Dale was built in a valley.

[Tolwen]

You have presented a town with 3 three sides covered by fairly high embankments, which are almost as good as beng on a hill (it was after all part to the strategy behind Helm's deep).

Perhaps we have a misunderstanding about what Dale is/was on the image. As I see it, the raised area in the foreground with embankments (the raised plateau along the spur of the mountain) is not Dale. The ruins of Dale are in the lower right center, bordered on three sides by the Celduin (as detailed by beckett in the previous post). Judging from the general layout, the town lay on the low-lying valley area along the river and was bordered by a raised plateau on one side (the foreground). Everyone commanding this high ground would be in an excellent position to pummel the town below with siege artillery.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Glorelendil]

I'm interested in this topic because it can become a setting (eventually) for adventures during the War. A much better setting than the war in the south, really, because we know so little about it and the adventurers would not be overshadowed by some more famous ones.

To that end, I'm far more interested in scenarios that provide good storytelling opportunities, rather than those that make sense from the viewpoint of military/historical analysis. After all, we could discuss all day about how a leader of Sauron's intelligence would never let two hobbits walk into Mordor and throw his ring into a crevice. In the absence of the texts we would all say, "He would definitely recognize his one weakness and take steps to guard against it."

So what's the backstory of the War in the North? What happened that did not go according to plan? Who miscalculated what? Who led the easterlings and orcs? Which unlikely heroes rose to greatness? Who betrayed whom? What ancient power played a role?

[Beran]

I, as well, am interested to see how the War proceeds in the Northern Theater as there is very little infromation out there on the topic. And, look forward to adding a War footing to my game.

Yes, on second look I had mistaken some of the topography in the picture. It is surrounded on 3 sides by the river, and on one by the cliffs. Again, a fairly defensible postion. Though the one point that still alludes me with the picture is where is the actual battle site? I can't really see where there is enough ground to support an engagement with the forces listed in the sources.

After all, we could discuss all day about how a leader of Sauron's intelligence would never let two hobbits walk into Mordor and throw his ring into a crevice.

Sauron's intel came from the Palentir. Which is not the best source as it shows information in a way that wrong conclusions can be easily drawn. If he had a proper chief of Intel then you would be right.

For some people, myself included, who have an interest in history and siege warfare in particular, yes I think we prefer a little realism regarding the topic. I realize it is fantasy, but you have to have realism in it somewhere. As well some of us also might like to a more realistic approach to telling our stories.

[poosticks7]

Dale was built in a dale

Just thought I'd point that out.

It is an intriguing setting for adventure as Elf Crusher pointed out. We should definitely explore it further.

[Tolwen]

Yes, on second look I had mistaken some of the topography in the picture. It is surrounded on 3 sides by the river, and on one by the cliffs. Again, a fairly defensible postion. Though the one point that still alludes me with the picture is where is the actual battle site? I can't really see where there is enough ground to support an engagement with the forces listed in the sources.

As you said, the image was probably not intended to depict a precise geographical layout true to scale, but showing the general layout. If we look at Thrór's map provided in The Hobbit, the overall layout of the image is validated. Interestingly, the valley is already wider on this map (which is more informative rather than geographical true as well). A mountain of the supposed size of Erebor (Karen Fonstad estimates it at about 1,000m or more) with several spurs radiating from it, forms valleys between the spurs several kilometers in width (of course, depending which point you are looking from). This leaves ample room for a battle with lots of troops. Fonstad estimates the width of the valley at the latitude of Dale at about 7km.

The defensive value of Celduin would probably limited near Erebor, as this was the source of the river, and without further tributaries it is very unlikely to be wide or deep here. It is probably enough for smaller river craft with a shallow draught. It shouldn't be a too big obstacle for an army (even though an army defending one bank would benefit of course from the enemies having to ford it for their attack).

Cheers
Tolwen

[Beran]

And the valley does give a possible reason as to why the Dwarven and Dale forces marched out to meet the Easterling army. They may have opted to use the mouth of the valley to funnel the enemy, and thus reduce the effectiveness of his numbers (not unlike the Greeks at Thermopylae).

If you take a close look at the scene when the Dwarves first see Dale in the movie it is located on spur rock in a valley, so PJ wasn't that far off. I think it can be assumed that the river is out of sight on the other side of the city.

...rather than those that make sense from the viewpoint of military/historical analysis.

Considering the emphasis that Tolkien placed on history when designing ME I find this statement a little odd. I find including a history and following the laws of nature makes a world much more believable and esaier to immerse oneself in. If I add a mountain range, like the Rockies, into a world I am designing then I take things like that it is going to be rather tectonically active, which means the region will problaby be prone to earthquakes and maybe some amount of volcanism. I will take into account that one side of the range will have quite a bit of rain and the other side will be more arid. I will consider the different types of trees that will be present (ie evergreens at higher altitudes). I can't abid an event or feature that is just plunked into a storyline with nothing to back it up, just for the sake of story. Especially in a world like ME which is steeped in its own history and that of the real world.