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Elfcrusher wrote:Getting back to Laketown, what makes for the best story? A burnt Laketown? (Refugees could make for interesting plot developments.) A besieged Laketown? (As I mentioned before, sneaking across enemy lines and rooting out traitors could be fun.) An occupied Laketown? A Laketown that sides with Sauron?

Sure, all are good ideas. Start with the PCs in LT before the siege, then go to the occupation, then escape from the city, then crossing enemy lines to re group with the Allied forces at Dale and Erebor and continue the fight. That is a logical progression of siege type story. Don't have the players start in LT before the siege and end the War of the Ring in an intact Lake Town just because you want to continue using it as is. That makes no military or literary sense at all. That is what I am saying; have a good story, but don't compromise reality for it.

Beran wrote:

Elfcrusher wrote:Getting back to Laketown, what makes for the best story? A burnt Laketown? (Refugees could make for interesting plot developments.) A besieged Laketown? (As I mentioned before, sneaking across enemy lines and rooting out traitors could be fun.) An occupied Laketown? A Laketown that sides with Sauron?

Sure, all are good ideas. Start with the PCs in LT before the siege, then go to the occupation, then escape from the city, then crossing enemy lines to re group with the Allied forces at Dale and Erebor and continue the fight. That is a logical progression of siege type story. Don't have the players start in LT before the siege and end the War of the Ring in an intact Lake Town just because you want to continue using it as is. That makes no military or literary sense at all. That is what I am saying; have a good story, but don't compromise reality for it.

This thread has already discussed several scenarios in which Laketown remains intact without any reality being compromised.

By intact I mean undamaged in any way. If an Easterling force tried to take LT for a port facility they will have to infantry assault the place. I have a funny feeling that the citizens will have a problem with that. The town will be booby trapped, sabotaged, or the actual port facilities will be destroyed if the city is abandoned; no one walks away from their city just to leave it to an enemy intact. If not it will take heavy damage in the fighting. There is no way around it. To say otherwise is just being unrealistic...even for a fantasy setting such as ME.

But, hey you want an intact LT after the War...go for it.

I always enjoy reading these sort of threads. I just couldn't help but chip in.

My personal thoughts are that it is quite easy to envisage a situation where Laketown is barely even attacked during the War of the Ring
Tolwen (Hello there mate!) writes about the ability of the Easterlings to transport siege equipment up the Celduin by boat. There are a few problems that would be faced by invaders attempting to do this.

The first is the weather and it's adverse effect on the environs. The River Running is most likely a fast flowing river at the best of times, else it might be known as the River Meandering. It is likely that the river would be swollen with snowmelt at this time of the year making it even harder to navigate, especially travelling against the current. Even if the spring came early, it is likely that any portage points would still be extremely boggy and that siege equipment and the boats used to transport it would get stuck.

Consider how various invaders have found the very land seeming to conspire against them as they invade Mother Russia.

Another poster mentioned that the painting of Esgaroth lacked any obvious defences. Of course, this painting shows Laketown some 60 years before the War of the Ring. It may well have changed somewhat and grown in the intervening decades. It is my belief, anyway, that the actual defence of Laketown against a river borne invasion would take place at Girion's Stair. The cliff and falls would present a formidable natural obstacle and would have to be taken by storm before boats and equipment could be portaged up to the lake.

Do we think that the King's of Dale were simply heroic individuals, or were they clever as well(or at least well advised)?
If the latter, then it is reasonable to believe that a fortification has been built there, providing some defence against a flanking march up the road from the Crossings of the Celduin and through the narrow corridor between the lake and falls.

Mainly for these reasons, it is my conjecture that the siege train did not get anywhere near Dale or Esgaroth. I reckon that it was either bogged down and struggling up the waterlogged Running Valley or part way across the northern plains, having followed the main Easterling forces across the Redwater.

If the elves were under seige during the War of the Ring, I dare say Mirkwood would be a pretty neat staging ground for evil doers; you've got the Mountains of Mirkwood right there, where all manner of foul things are hiding. Who knows how many vampires are hiding out in the forests, ready to swoop down on Lake-town to terrorize its inhabitants. You go camp out at Girion's Stair all you want

Nevermind hauling siege equipment up the river, you've got Mirkwood right there; just build it! Then start launching disease-ridden bodies into the town along with a few fire bombs with a nice spread. While they're bucket-brigading that stuff, launch your over-loaded boats of Easterling infantry. They might hold out the first night. Maybe the second. But give it a few days and their warriors will be down and out soon enough that all they're left with are the old, women, and children.

Now I'm no Tolkien historian, but for the purposes of fan-fiction, we know there are still dragons in the north, even Tolkien said as much; of all places, north-east Rhovanion would be in danger of any such over-grown lizards that decided to march with Sauron.

At the end of the day it's a number of glorified huts on stilts. You guys go ahead and fortify yourselves, you'll find me paddling my ass off in the night towards Erebor.

Very good points Halbarad. However, I'm not sure I agree that the LT defenses would have chagned much over the 60 years between the time the game is set and the WotR. First, it is a golden age for the city, the coffers are swollen with the gold from their share of the dragon hoard and public works building is going on; at least I assume so. If the defences haven't been added to by now, I don't think much will be done over the next 60 years. Just because it isn't something the Lake Men are thinking about, they are thinking about re opening trade not defence. So, I think it safe to say that the Lake Town of the era of the WotR would look very similar to the Lake Town as depicted in the Lake Town supplement.

As I mentioned previously siege equipment would only be used to destroy the city. If the Easterlings want to use the city as a base of operations they would have to storm the place with infantry. A couple mis aimed shots from catapults would take out the support stilts and half the city would come crashing down into the lake. And as the Prof said himself in the thier description the Easterling forces are well lead and well trained troops. I believe there is mention in the books about an Easterling unit at Minas Tirith that stood their ground and fought to the last man after the rest of Sauron's army fled the field. These are tough battle hardened troops with fairly good equipment going up against what would equate to a civilian reserve force. The fighting in the city would be bloody, but brief. Assuming the Lake Men didn't scupper the city first themselves.

And as some one just mentioned if the remaining Dragons of the North joined Saurons' forces who needs siege engines any way?

Of course Heileman, there might be loads of vampires in Mirkwood and they might attack Laketown or they might be a bit busy, following the boss's orders and concentrating on Thranduil's Halls. Besides, Laketown bowmen have a proud tradition to uphold and their forebears faced down a dragon in the past. A bunch of oversized bats would be little more than an irritation.

The point is that I don't believe that Esgaroth/Laketown would have featured in the enemy's plans, except as an afterthought. Any siege weaponry that became available, such as those built and somehow transported across 20-30 miles of fenland by the denizens of Mirkwood, would have been diverted to the main task at hand, the Siege of Erebor.

Just my opinion though.

Beran,

It would be a mistake, IMO, to believe that all of the Easterling warriors who fought for Sauron were of the same fighting ability or were possessed of similar stoicism to that bunch you refer to.
There's a saying somewhere about men fighting in defence of their homes and their worth versus any number of hired swords. Now, Sauron's army may not be hired men but there were probably large numbers of them fighting under duress and who would rather be elsewhere.
Hence, their complete collapse of morale following the death of Sauron.

Once again, just my thoughts on it.

True, about men fighting for their homes...that is why I said the fight would be bloody.

As to the quality of the troops I could see the unit in question at MT as being a kind of Immortal formation, but the Prof himself said that the Easterling forces in general were all fairly high caliber troops. Now, this coming from a military man tells me that the army are dedicated, probably all volunteer, and trained to high standards, and he does mention that even though their weapons weren't of the same quality as those of the Dwarves they were still were well armed and armoured. Now, granted these are assumption, but they are assumptions based on what has been said by the author himself.

I would also point out that no matter how elite a mercenary unit is, they don't fight to the last man when retreat is an option. That is the mark of die hard fanatics. True there is nothing written to support the Easterling forces in the North were of the same quality, but then again there is nothing written to dispute it either.

I agree that such units of Easterlings that took the field at MT were high quality and well armed, but I believe that the Easterlings who attacked Dale were not of the same calibre. It is highly likely that Sauron committed the best of his troops against Gondor.
The only evidence I can cite to support my thoughts is that when the Dwarves and Men of Dale sallied forth after the third day, they routed the Easterlings. There is no mention of an ordered retreat and there is no mention of units fighting to the death. Of course, some units may have done exactly those things, but it reads that the rest simply melted away.

Looking at the Battle of the Camp in UT, we also see evidence of an Easterling horde being scattered like chaff.

Once again though, each to their own.