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Beran wrote:True there is nothing written to support the Easterling forces in the North were of the same quality, but then again there is nothing written to dispute it either.

Right. So...again...we can build almost any story we like.

While driving around this morning I thought of this:
1) The enemy knows that Dale & Erebor are going to take all of his effort (and the Easterlings know where there's treasure to loot) he'd rather not have to waste time & energy on LT.
2) Laketown has a number of influential traders, and downright cowards, who don't want to "pick sides" in the war, especially since they believe (Shadow points for them!) that Sauron is going to win in the end.
3) Therefore, through negotiations, Laketown remains as a "neutral city" during the war, but with the ever-present awareness that only one side has the ability to punish them for breaking neutrality. Like Geneva in WWII.
4) That means it's the one place where adventurers can mingle with colorful characters from both sides, opening up all sorts of Casablana-esque plot lines. Maybe they are trying to get to Erebor, and the Enemy is looking for them, so they have to pretend to be something else. ("These aren't the Dwarves you're looking for. We're free to go.")

It would be dramatic to end the war with Laketown getting destroyed anyway, but I don't really see how or why that would happen. Without dragon fire it doesn't seem likely to me that the city would burn easily (especially if the citizens practiced bucket brigade drills, and kept roofs wet during battles), I don't think it's realistic from an engineering perspective that damaging a few key pilings would cause a chain reaction. And, however it would happen, it should somehow hinge on the actions of the adventurers.

But after a lot of intrigue and cloak & dagger adventures, it could be a fitting conclusion for the town to come to a dramatic end.

Some of you lean toward the escape over the water scenario during the siege, & note this passage from A Warm Welcome in The Hobbit:

They still throve on the trade that came up the great river from the South and was carted past the falls to their town; but in the days of old, when Dale in the North was rich and prosperous, they had been wealthy and powerful, and there had been fleets of boats on the waters, and some were filled with gold and some with warriors in armour, and there had been wars and deeds which were now only a legend...

A cool adventure might be to expand that portion of your story so that your heroes attempt to escape on board one of these boats. Or, they go to get help, or to infiltrate someone in (or out), that sort of thing.

At any rate, the Easterlings sail/row some boats as well - they capture them, build 'em in Mirkwood, or bring 'em up the river, losing some from the raging waters that Halbarad describes - to patrol or bring up supplies, etc. In the event that the Easterlings spot your heroes, you can have a great chase across the lake - very exciting.

I think that it can be argued that with the Haradrim and Corsairs Sauron had the dregs (rather then his best) "with him" at Gondor and combined with the general unreliability of the orcs and trolls was the reason why the Southern Army folded so easily. I think it would have been more tactically and strategically sound that he have the Easterlings concentrate their operations in the Northern Theater. After all having to crack Dale, Erebor and the Woodland Realm he would need sound troops to do so. All he had to do in the South was crush MT.

I seem to also remember reading that when the Allied Forces sortied from Erebor to meet the Easterling forces the allies were virtually pushed back to the gates of Erebor. And it was from this position the Easterlings were eventually routed from once The One Ring was destroyed.

Actually, what you describe is more like Vichy then Geneva. But, your Casablanca idea does have merit...though, I personally wouldn't use it. If nothing else the proximity to the Battle zone of Dale and Erebor LT would have suffered collateral damage of some kind.

It's as you say a matter of opinion on how you want to run your show. I like the idea of grittiness and showing the horror of war. You obviously like a more sanitized approach. I like my (game) wars to be messy, reflecting reality.

Idea #271:

A colossal black crocodile...large enough to destroy smaller boats...appears in the lake and takes up residence amidst Smaug's bones. Whether bred by Sauron or corrupted by the blight of dragon's corpse none can say, but it's cunning and maliciousness terrifies the Men of the Lake. Even the fishermen, normally fearless of the lake's dangers, refuse to go out, exposing the town (already riven by factional differences) to food scarcity.

But the crocodile provides an unexpected blessing, for the the Easterlings are even more afraid of the beast, superstitiously associating it with a dark legend from their own mythology. The Easterlings refuse to anywhere near the lake, and there aren't enough orcs (who will grimly march to their deaths if the Dark Lord wills it) available to effectively besiege the town.

Beran wrote: I like the idea of grittiness and showing the horror of war. You obviously like a more sanitized approach. I like my (game) wars to be messy, reflecting reality.

I'm literally scratching my head wondering how you came up with that one.

I'm not opposed to having battles and burning towns, I just think it's silly to say that a certain outcome is the only "realistic" one. So I'm offering alternative scenarios that don't require suspension of disbelief, and could make for a really fun game.

Also, TOR doesn't really support participation in mass combat, so if the war in the north is going to unfold purely as a military campaign it becomes less interesting, at least to me. Sure, you CAN find adventures for the heroes, but they're adventurers, not soldiers, so at most they'll be bystanders to events beyond their control.

And if the adventurers do have the ability to sway the outcome....doesn't that contradict the claim that the various outcomes are militarily inevitable?

Elfcrusher wrote:Idea #271:

A colossal black crocodile...large enough to destroy smaller boats...appears in the lake and takes up residence amidst Smaug's bones. Whether bred by Sauron or corrupted by the blight of dragon's corpse none can say, but it's cunning and maliciousness terrifies the Men of the Lake. Even the fishermen, normally fearless of the lake's dangers, refuse to go out, exposing the town (already riven by factional differences) to food scarcity.

But the crocodile provides an unexpected blessing, for the the Easterlings are even more afraid of the beast, superstitiously associating it with a dark legend from their own mythology. The Easterlings refuse to anywhere near the lake, and there aren't enough orcs (who will grimly march to their deaths if the Dark Lord wills it) available to effectively besiege the town.

Ok, you had me interested until the second paragraph. This is an example of dropping things in without thinking about the background. Why would a culture that I can only assume is based on the Persian Empire be superstitious of a crocodile? Not to mention you have ruined LT as trading port in the future until some was brave enough to slay the beast as such an animal would attack any vessel on the lake. Not to mention it would quickly eliminate the existing ecosystem in the lake and very quickly start to move up the food chain. Now you have a water based Smaug. Unless that is what you want a Saturday afternoon matinee monster hunt. Which I admit can be fun.

Or, better yet. The crocodile is a symbol of victory to the Easterlings and the appearance of the great beast drives them on to fight harder.

MERP supported the idea that the folk of Lake-town retreated to Dale in the War of the Ring:

Easterlings assail and capture Lake-town during the War of the Ring (T.A. 3018-19). Again, the Land-bridge
is temporarily thrown down, but the remainder of the platform-settlement remains intact. The Lake-folk
retreat to Dale and, together with the Dale-folk and the Dwarves of Erebor, make a stand against the invaders
at the Battle of Dale (on Rething 15-17, 3019). They are defeated and both Brand of Dale and Dain II "Ironfoot"
are slain. The Easterlings then occupy Dale and set siege to Erebor. There, the four peoples--The Lake-folk,
Gramuz*, Bardings, and Dwarves--take refuge. Bard II and Thorin III finally lead an army out of the Lonely
Mountain and succeed in crushing the invaders. The Free Peoples reoccupy Esgaroth and Dale, quickly repairing
their hallowed towns. Life continues much as before, for well into the Fourth Age.

* MERP identifies the Gramuz (or "Plainsfolk") as an "agricultural Northron group" that migrated to Rhovanion via the Isen Gap between TA 300 and 500. "The Gramuz live in rural wilderland, from the rugged hills in the southern shadow of the Grey Mountains to th rolling plains southeast of Mirkwood."

Elfcrusher wrote:I'm not opposed to having battles and burning towns, I just think it's silly to say that a certain outcome is the only "realistic" one. So I'm offering alternative scenarios that don't require suspension of disbelief, and could make for a really fun game.

I'm doing the same thing, I just think that your ideas are the ones that require the suspension of disbelief.

Also, TOR doesn't really support participation in mass combat, so if the war in the north is going to unfold purely as a military campaign it becomes less interesting, at least to me. Sure, you CAN find adventures for the heroes, but they're adventurers, not soldiers, so at most they'll be bystanders to events beyond their control.

Everything I suggest can be done in the narrative without having to "draft" the players. But, I also have to disagree with you on the PC not being soldiers as most of the cultures in ME are warrior cultures who trained to protect their land in a time of war and it is reflected in the game.

And if the adventurers do have the ability to sway the outcome....doesn't that contradict the claim that the various outcomes are militarily inevitable?

How so?

Elfcrusher wrote:Idea #271:
A colossal black crocodile...large enough to destroy smaller boats...appears in the lake and takes up residence amidst Smaug's bones [snip]

Far from being niggling, but this interesting idea needs IMO some modification. Crocodiles (i.e. the various species of more or less large carnivorous reptiles we know from the real world) cannot survive at this northern latitude with a quite cool climate and thus would not be available as a naturally occurring predatory animal of the region when making him-/herself a nest amidst Smaug's remains. Thus it would be an idea to use another animal native to the area/climate as the basis for a monstrous predator endangering people and boats (perhaps a large predatory fish).
Another solution would be a much smaller relative of real dragons, as such a creature of the secondary world would be less subject to natural laws compared to an animal like a croco (and can thus survive in cool or even cold climates).

Cheers
Tolwen

Well, I suppose I can give my interpretation too

1-about Dale's defences: simply put, I expect these to be reasonable. It's a prosperous people living in a dangerous world, with a lot of stonemasons living stone's throw. If there is a cliff overlooking the city as proposed by Tolwen (page 3), surely this cliff is fortified (as in any medieval town, by the way). The fact that the city eventually fall to the easterlings doesn't prove much: Minas Tirith was stormed, and its fortifications were amazing. Sauron armies were prepared for the task.
2-about the easterling army: well I expect it to be huge. Three reasons: first, Sauron's armies tend to be huge. Second, it's really cool and heroic :p Third: any army attacking Dale has to deal with Erebor too, at the risk of being taken in a pincer. You need to blockade/fend both Men and Dwarves at once. You need a lot of troops to do this.
I don't expect a siege train, tough: the distances are daunting. I described my easterlings as a cavalry army, and I expect them to be reinforced by Sauron's engineers tasked to build the siege equipment once in place. A strong cavalry can better react to a relief army from the Iron Hills.
3-about Esgaroth: the lake is huge and the lakemen can use it to harry the communication lines of the easterlings. They need to neutralize it. My preference would be to have the invaders span the water till the town with an earthwork. Let's face it: the lake is shallow, you got plenty manpower, and putting men on boats is a way to fight to the lakemen's terms. Last but not least, having thousand men building an earthwork is a powerful, inexorable image. Slow enough to have the defenders enact heroic deeds.
4-about the allied army facing the enemy in the open? Two years of bad harvests can leave you low on provision: in such situations you can be forced to face the enemy. Fighting the easterlings in the confines of the valley is your best option then (it worked in 2941).
I think that the population was sheltered in Erebor before the battle: very unlikely to manage such feat in face of a victorious army.