Travelling through the Halls of Durin's Folk

[Glorelendil]

Possibly confusion?

So a couple questions/comments:

Is what you are calling a "navigation" check equal to a Travel role? I need a more precise definition there...

I was envisioning Navigation checks being triggered by failed Travel rolls, and maybe other events and/or LM discretion. This part needs some work. EDIT: I also imagine Travel TNs in Moria being frequent and very high, so there will be lots of failures...

The "margin of error" between knowing one is lost and not knowing seems off to me; I believe it should be flipped.

In other words if a player rolls within the margin of "lostness" shouldn't that be that they have failed but they know about? Otherwise players get a worse result from rolling higher (and presumably having more skill).

What if, instead, you set the "lostness" value as a number equal to like, let's say, 6 or 8 or 10. That number is the value that, if players roll, they fail and don't know about it. So if a group has a current lostness of 8, and they roll "navigation" checks of 8 or less, they fail but think they succeed. This synergizes better, also, with weariness, as it will produce lower results which reflect properly how the body's fatigue is affectng the mind and so forth.

The problem with that is that if they roll a 4 and the LM says, "You succeeded!" they will know something is up. My goal was the leave them truly guessing, and do it with one roll.

(Although that's a really good point about Weary.)

[buddhax]

The idea about Lostness could apply to any kind of trip. Whenever you go to one point to another, you can lost your way and become disoriented. You continue your trip based on something and lost more. Lost means in any case walk off the path to the Place.

Now, in terms of rules, we know a trip requires an amount of Travel test to see the fatigue and in case of a Hazard you can lost your way and take more time, depend on the kind of Hazard.

But we want something more complex for Moria or some kind of underground or really difficult trips.

I have to say I love maps but for this kind of experience it doesn't make any sense. You could use minor maps to describe some sections of Moria but it's a huge city so using a map transform the experience into a classic Dungeon.

If we want something more atomic but in line with the current rules, I think I'll add a new rule:

In case any player doesn't know a correct way, or the trip is really hard, it requires a daily Explore test to orientate (Orientation Test). The TN should not be so high since the beginning. It could start in 14 or 16 (Orientation TN).

In case of a success, nothing happens. In case of Great Success, for this day and the following, you don't need a test. In case of Extraordinary Success, for three days you go without problems.

A Gandalf means you get a Clue, an opportunity to reduce the degree of TN for one test. Like using Hunting, Lore, Riddle (like the examples you guys are using) and in case of Success it reduces the TN by one deree. Great Success for the following two test. And Extraordinary Sucesss, three test.

In case of Eye, you get a Hazard which it also can become a Disorientation. This means you raise your Disorientation in one grade. So if Orientation TN was 14, now is 16.

You can reduce Disorientation degree with a Great Success, but it will never go lower than starting TN.

I love the idea of keep Explore test in secret. I like this rule because it reduce everything to one variable: Orientation and one basic Test: Explore, but it gives the opportunity like in Hazards to increase Orientation or reduce it making the trip more long. More long mean, more opportunity to Fatigue and Hazards as it happens in a real trip.

[Glorelendil]

I really like the idea of periodic Explore tests; that's essentially what I was envisioning by "Navigation tests".

Using Riddle is also a great idea.

[Hermes Serpent]

Here's an example of how I was working this past weekend. The party of sturdy dwarves has camped at Dwarrowdelf, the ruined city on north side of the ridge stretching out just above Moria on the Player's map. They set out for Mirromere where they must find the old stone marking the point where Durin first gazed into Kheled-zâram. They ascended the ridge having selected the path via a successful Search test. After cresting the ridge and as they started the descent into Dimrill Dale I gave them the Hazard resulting from an earlier Travel test that failed with an Eye - a Dead-end resulting in a need to go back and find a fresh path over the ridge. This worked fine as the distance travelled was enough to trigger more that one Travel test (each 5 days) but travelling through Moria is not necessarily going to have tests every five day period. It's probably not even possible to change it to each five miles although that has some utility in that it can be tied directly to time and difficulty of terrain with the terrain modifier moderating the distance covered per hour.

So I'm thinking a mechanism to generate Fatigue while travelling and a mechanism to generate a value of 'lostness' or 'unlostness' based on tests of other skills. Decision points need to be set (crossroads or junctions) and a TN set for each with a set of possible skills that can be used (Riddle, Lore, Athletics, Wisdom) depending upon the area (tunnels, masonry passages, halls or caverns and natural tunnels). The degree of 'lostness' can modify the TN required to select the correct passage.I also think that it's necessary to consider the random 'We choose the left-hand tunnel' option rather than making a skill check.

[Glorelendil]

It might be fun if the adventure required not just getting through Moria, but finding several things/places within it. So there's always a chance that, even completely, hopelessly, goatfucked-lost, they'll stumble across one of their objectives.

FYI, the plot I've been working on for Moria has the following elements (SPOILER ALERT!):
- Balin is keen on re-opening Moria, but faces resistance from Dain and others.
- He sends an intermediary to anonymously hire some adventurers to go scout things out.
- His political rivals get wind of the plan and try to thwart the expedition.
- The adventurers travel to Rivendell to talk to an elf from Eregion days about his memories (success in this encounter reduces Travel/Lore/Riddle TNs while in Moria).
- While in Rivendell, they get word of a half-crazed dwarf who has recently come out of Moria, claiming to have been a slave there since the Battle of Azanulzibar. He is currently a "guest" of the Woodmen.
- When they get there, the dwarf has escaped and fled into Mirkwood.
- The adventurers pursue and find the dwarf in a hard spot (bandits? orcs? spiders?)
- They rescue him, but find him exceedingly ungrateful and, frankly, a complete pain in the ass to travel with.
- He has no interest in helping the adventurers, but eventually the party might learn that he has left something behind in Moria (a brother? revenge? treasure?) and can be persuaded to help. Enough successes and he might even accompany them as a guide (which comes with its own hazards.)
- Alternate Plot: the escapee is a goblin, formerly an important advisor (more brains that brawn, for an orc) but disgraced by rivals.
- Moria itself is riven by political factions, which is the only thing that makes travel in it possible. Exploiting those factions cleverly is a huge advantage.
- Eventually their guide (dwarf or orc) betrays them for his own ends. Of course.

Thoughts?

P.S. Even if they fail all Encounter rolls with the potential guide, he is devious enough that he will give them some information, some of which will be helpful, but a key piece of which is intended to get them killed.

[Glorelendil]

I also think that it's necessary to consider the random 'We choose the left-hand tunnel' option rather than making a skill check.

Absolutely. Every navigation check will have N possible decisions. A random choice would have 1/N chances of being correct (or just make it 50% for simplicity) rolled secretly by LM. This could be triggered when:
1) The party fails the roll and they know it, so they pick a direction and go.
2) The party knows the odds are bad and they don't even bother to roll.
3) The party is fleeing and doesn't have time to make decisions.

In any event, on random guesses I would rule that a failure is just continued lost-ness, while a success reduces lost-ness by 1. Makes the incentives more interesting.

[shipwreck]

Of leaves and Stewed Hobbit (Tales from Wilderland, pg 35-37) has some information for tunnel journeys that might be useful.

Yeah, this. I think it makes mention about how Moria is a comparatively easier trip than chugging along through unpaved goblin-tunnels. Then again, there aren't balrogs in Goblin-town.

[buddhax]

I guess Moria could be considered as blighted, at least, in some levels of the city.

[Stormcrow]

I haven't read every post in this thread, so I apologize if I repeat something someone said.

For exploring places like Moria, use hidden Explore tests as a prolonged action. Each success means the party has made actual progress in the right direction. Regular successes mean they think they're lost; great successes mean they think they're going in the right direction; extraordinary successes mean they are certain they're going in the right direction. Failure indicates the party gets lost and thinks they're lost; an Eye on a failure means the party gets lost but THINKS they're on the right track. If they get a failure with an Eye immediately after a success, they get lost but are CERTAIN they're on the right track.

Put some scenes between rolls; there's no reason to roll all the test rolls at once.

[Glorelendil]

If they get a failure with an Eye immediately after a success, they get lost but are CERTAIN they're on the right track.

I don't like the LM rolling in secret for players. But if they're rolling for themselves, and an eye means their characters believe something, the players themselves will know it's not true. Which can be role-played (like pretending you don't know who Strider is) but again my preference is for the players to actually wonder/worry about how lost they are.

I do like using Search for navigation, but I also think Lore, Riddle, and even Insight ("What would a Dwarf do?") could play roles. Navigation is a huge part of the adventure of Moria, so I'd rather not put it all on one skill, which tends to put all the burden (and fun) on one player.