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In the thread about expanded weapon lists somebody mentioned that the "Shield-fighting" virtue of Men of the Lake was powerful. I never added that culture to my sim, so I just did so and tested out Shield-fighting.

Wow.

I created a Man of the Lake with "Masterful Fingers" (to give him a Body of 6), a sword (skill 3 or 4, depending on opponent), a shield, no armor, and no other virtues or rewards. I pitted him against various orcs and spiders, looking for win rates in the 40-60% range (changes are most relevant in evenly-matched fights). When Shield-fighting was added, win rates went up by around 8 to 10%. For example, against Great Spider the hero won 53% of the time without Shield-fighting, and 63% with it.

That's huge. Most other virtues and rewards are worth less than 5%.

I'd suggest Shield-fighting should be house-ruled to change the TN to 9 or even 10.

(And, if I had my druthers, it would be a general Mastery, not specific to one culture. But that's just me...)

I posted the changes to the sim if anybody else wants to play with it.

Elfcrusher wrote:In the thread about expanded weapon lists somebody mentioned that the "Shield-fighting" virtue of Men of the Lake was powerful. I never added that culture to my sim, so I just did so and tested out Shield-fighting.

Wow.

I created a Man of the Lake with "Masterful Fingers" (to give him a Body of 6), a sword (skill 3 or 4, depending on opponent), a shield, no armor, and no other virtues or rewards. I pitted him against various orcs and spiders, looking for win rates in the 40-60% range (changes are most relevant in evenly-matched fights). When Shield-fighting was added, win rates went up by around 8 to 10%. For example, against Great Spider the hero won 53% of the time without Shield-fighting, and 63% with it.

That's huge. Most other virtues and rewards are worth less than 5%.

I'd suggest Shield-fighting should be house-ruled to change the TN to 9 or even 10.

(And, if I had my druthers, it would be a general Mastery, not specific to one culture. But that's just me...)

I posted the changes to the sim if anybody else wants to play with it.

One of my players has the Shield-Fighting virtue. I have not noticed it being overpowered or breaking the game. She is either having bad luck with her feat re-roll on this virtue, or it really isn't as powerful as the math suggests. I will endeavor to pay more attention to this if combat comes up during our next session. It is possible that I just haven't noticed, juggling plots and player choices and LM Characters and whatnot.

Did I say "if combat comes up?" They are heading into Mirkwood!

beckett wrote: One of my players has the Shield-Fighting virtue. I have not noticed it being overpowered or breaking the game. She is either having bad luck with her feat re-roll on this virtue, or it really isn't as powerful as the math suggests. I will endeavor to pay more attention to this if combat comes up during our next session. It is possible that I just haven't noticed, juggling plots and player choices and LM Characters and whatnot.

Did I say "if combat comes up?" They are heading into Mirkwood!

Given the infrequency of attack rolls in TOR (compared to, say, World of Warcraft) it's unlikely you'd notice its effect observationally, unless she rolled an extraordinarily lucky streak.

In my sim, I ran the matches one at a time, studying the log for each fight, and it didn't seem so great. "Hero dies....hero dies...orc dies, but shield didn't get used...shield misses...wow this virtue sucks."

But when you run 10,000 fights and look at the aggregate statistics it stands out. I'm sure somewhere in that run would be a section of the log that would make your eyes pop.

Nature of randomness.

Elfcrusher wrote:Given the infrequency of attack rolls in TOR (compared to, say, World of Warcraft) it's unlikely you'd notice its effect observationally, unless she rolled an extraordinarily lucky streak.

May be this is already telling you why shield fighting is ok as it is (in my opinion at least). TOR is not a game like D&D or Warhammer 3 where the game revolves heavily around combat.

In the absence of a Shield skill, the shield fighting is potent - but someone who actually has worked on fighting with one's shield probably should be getting a good bit of swing.

The biggest problem I see with it is that it's currently pairing with an edge most of the time when it triggers; changing it higher will exacerbate that.

Yepesnopes wrote:

Elfcrusher wrote:Given the infrequency of attack rolls in TOR (compared to, say, World of Warcraft) it's unlikely you'd notice its effect observationally, unless she rolled an extraordinarily lucky streak.

May be this is already telling you why shield fighting is ok as it is (in my opinion at least). TOR is not a game like D&D or Warhammer 3 where the game revolves heavily around combat.

That's actually a really good point, Yeps. Maybe in games where you only get a few attack rolls (if that) per session, it doesn't really matter if some abilities are statistically better than others. It just matters that they're fun.

Elfcrusher wrote:That's actually a really good point, Yeps. Maybe in games where you only get a few attack rolls (if that) per session, it doesn't really matter if some abilities are statistically better than others. It just matters that they're fun.

In a perfect world, all of the masteries would balance perfectly. But fun should be maximum, yes. Plus, looking at combat only ignores 2/3rds of the game: a poor combatant may be the perfect Face for Encounters.

I need to start going to Elitist Jerks Anonymous meetings again. "Hello, I'm Elfcrusher, and I'm addicted to the EJ forums."

"Hello, Elfcrusher!"

Elfcrusher wrote:I need to start going to Elitist Jerks Anonymous meetings again. "Hello, I'm Elfcrusher, and I'm addicted to the EJ forums."

"Hello, Elfcrusher!"

Hunh, what?

I dont think you're an Elitist Jerk, nor am I sure where this is coming from.

Edit: rereading it seems like maybe you think I am being an EJ; was not trying to, actually just trying to agree with your last statement.

OMG total misunderstanding. I was referring to this:
http://forums.elitistjerks.com/index
Where I spent way too much time for too many years learning (and debating) how to do another 0.001% damage with my rogue. (My claim to fame: made the first post that became "subtlety tri-spec" during mid-late TBC.)