House of the Wolfings (off-topic)

[Glorelendil]

This is wildly off-topic, other than that House of the Wolfings is clearly a source of inspiration for both Tolkien and some TOR content.

In the first chapter of the book there is this paragraph:

"Yet you must not think that their solemn councils were held there, the folk-motes whereat it must be determined what to do and what to forbear doing; for according as such councils, (which they called Things) were of the House or of the Mid-mark or of the whole Folk, were they held each at the due Thing-steads in the Wood aloof from either acre or meadow, (as was the custom of our forefathers for long after) and at such Things would all the men of the House or the Mid-mark or the Folk be present man by man.  And in each of these steads was there a Doomring wherein Doom was given by the neighbours chosen, (whom now we call the Jury) in matters between man and man; and no such doom of neighbours was given, and no such voice of the Folk proclaimed in any house or under any roof, nor even as aforesaid on the tilled acres or the depastured meadows.  This was the custom of our forefathers, in memory, belike, of the days when as yet there was neither house nor tillage, nor flocks and herds, but the Earth’s face only and what freely grew thereon."

I have been struggling to parse the last part of this, starting with "...and no such doom". The best interpretation I can come up with is that "neighbors saved their grievances for the Thing, and didn't judge each other outside of it", which sort of makes sense...until you get to the last sentence.

Any insight?

(Just FYI, I'm working on a "translation" of the entire book. Yay expired copyright! I would have loved this story when I was 14, but the archaic constructions would have dissuaded me. I think it deserves a wider audience. I'm particularly looking forward to translating the verse.)

[trystero]

I think you're right: to me, it sounds like the author is saying that Doomrings are only held in the Thing-stead in the woods, and that they aren't held inside buildings or on settled lands. And the last sentence says the reason for this is that the Thing tradition dates back to before the Folk had buildings or settled lands.

But I wouldn't swear to this reading. :-)

[Glorelendil]

Oh oh oh, I get it. That does make sense.

[Hermes Serpent]

Might be worth looking at the use of the doomring or Thing in Iceland and see where similarities arise. Same for the sagas as they are most likely the source of the concepts found in the Wolfings as Morris translated a number of the Icelandic sags with a Eiríkr Magnússon. Despite the Icelandic-like Thing the Wolfings is based on what Morris knew of Germanic tribes rather than Norse legend. It might also be worth checking either his translation of Beowulf or the Tolkien version or even the Heaney version to see if there is any reference to any sort of jury trial by someone's peers.

[Dunheved]

And the last sentence says the reason for this is that the Thing tradition dates back to before the Folk had buildings or settled lands.

I agree. I read this to be an old style way of saying 'Judgements have to be made on completely neutral ground or in neutral settings.'

Perhaps it then harks back to a time remembered like 'the good old days' when people were wandering freely without possessions/land and the constraints/responsibilities of keeping such ground. So you wouldn't make a judgement about someone building a mill next to a river if you owned cattle that might need access to that river say. (??)

("perhaps it harks back to" - just listen to me - like I've grown a druids beard overnight!)

[Glorelendil]

And the last sentence says the reason for this is that the Thing tradition dates back to before the Folk had buildings or settled lands.

I agree. I read this to be an old style way of saying 'Judgements have to be made on completely neutral ground or in neutral settings.'

Perhaps it then harks back to a time remembered like 'the good old days' when people were wandering freely without possessions/land and the constraints/responsibilities of keeping such ground. So you wouldn't make a judgement about someone building a mill next to a river if you owned cattle that might need access to that river say. (??)

("perhaps it harks back to" - just listen to me - like I've grown a druids beard overnight!)

Oh, interesting. I hadn't considered a practical reason; I ended up interpreting it as just tradition. This is what I currently have:

"Such Doom of neighbors was never given in any house, or under any roof, or even in the tilled acres or grazed meadows, but always in the sacred Thing-steads. The Folk observed this custom in reverence of the days before the houses were built, when they had no herds and flocks, and no tilled fields, but just the Earth and the things that grew freely upon it."

[Dunheved]

Hi Elfcrusher

I agree completly with your points. I just wanted to suggest how events would have happened in order to get to that opinion you last quoted. I see three phases of time. 1. Hunter-Gatherers 2. Semi -settled populations 3. Farming communities that develop like this:

The way I think about it is that originally Hunter-Gatherer groups would have to resolve disputes both internally and with other groups that they met. I imagine that to take place either around the campfire, or literally as one group meets another (Encounter) on the trail. By default there would be little pre-planning about the location so debates would be open and immediate. The results of the debate (assuming that it didn't end in a fight!) would be agreed openly and honestly. People would leave the area / move on knowing and accepting the agreement they had just negociated. This establishes a pattern of behaviour or Procedure for debating and deciding amongst a collection of people. The agreements would be Oral and honour based.

As time goes on, I would expect larger populations to meet in communal Winter quarters and agreements could be shared and discussed around the camp fires. There would be an extended period of time for debate and a need to record decisions about who should do what and what is fair and correct. I like to think that perhaps Cave-Paintings are the first records of these debates: and that last year's agreements can be viewed again. However, the actual debating area would need to be quite extensive with larger numbers of people and with more contributors as well. It would be important that no one group, faction or individual held an (even perceived) advantage over others because otherwise the audience will have no reason to trust or honour the spoken agreements.
Here is the vital moment for me. The ground where all the people can meet and debate has to be neutral and open with easy access. It would be helpful to be somewhat shielded from the weather and it would have to be large enough to have such a gathering. These two final points suggest a dell, forest clearing, box canyon, coombe or bay-like area would be a really good place to hold these meetings. This would be the 'Thing-Area.'
Laws agreed in such an area could be seen to be just and fair. They too could be Honoured.

Finally we get to the time of the Wolfings. It is a more settled society with farms. NOW if you want to debate issues with your neighbours you already have a sheltered place to meet - your home. However, whoever hosts the meeting has an unfair advantage. Much more so with the Germanic/Celt peoples who Tolkien knew so much about. The duty of a host and of a guest are long traditions so that e.g. you can at least sleep under the same roof without fear. [The King's Meadhall in Beowulf is a major part of the story.]
So the society has to look for a fair solution. Meetings and debates have to be on neutral ground; in a largely open space where all have access to. People only have to look back to the way they did these debates before having permanent homes to remember when they could be open and honest in their words. When were they not bound by social rules about being a guest or a host? When were they in a neutral, open area and could treat each other as equals with equal rights and have agreed procedures about speaking? So the community looks back to a Thing-Area as the best place to recreate the correct atmosphere that everyone would honour (and hopefully obey). Just the cue for that quote you are looking at.....

It's a theory isn't it? Or perhaps just me having an idea. Bit long-winded of me - sorry for that!

Best of luck with your translations and thanks for all your other posts.

[Glorelendil]

Thanks for the extensive feedback, and all good points/good interpretation.

I don't know if you've read House of the Wolfings, but the Wolfings (and the "Folk" that consists of other houses...Elkings, Bearings, etc.) are an imaginary tribe of Goths who still remember (via tales) when they first came to the area where the story takes place. Presumably somewhere in northern Europe, as their river flows north. The first chapter of the book goes into detail about how they came to this spot in the woods and carved farms and meadows out of the wilderness. So the original, natural clearings would hold both sentimental and practical value.

My only doubt about the value of "neutral" ground, from the point of view of the author, is that he was influenced by the socialist/communist trends that were popular among intellectuals of the 19th century, and in some sense the book is a romantic allegory about communal life. (Indeed, the full text with commentary can be found on a web site about marxism.) Except for a few personal possessions such as weapons and armor, there is never any hint of "ownership" of any land or buildings in the book. So in that sense, all ground is neutral.

On the other hand, much of that is just the overly ripe imagination of the author and probably not historical, and my interest in creating a more accessible version of the book is hardly to promote socialism, so I'll have to think about what language feels the best.

Thanks!

[Heilemann]

I started reading it not so long ago actually, and as you say, it's remarkable how much of it must have directly informed the good professor. The first chapter is essentially laying out the exact geography of the Anduin Vales, down to and including Mirkwood (by name). And moreover, The One Ring itself draws quite a bit from it (and I'm only two chapters in; it's slow going), complete with an age-old green-glassed lamp with imagery on it, held high in the Wolfing Hall, always lit (hello Balthi).

Very much worth reading, albeit it has some curly language.

[Dunheved]

Big thanks to both of you Elfcrusher and Heilemann.

I think I might be looking out for the book now! I've just cleared the twelve volumes of The History of Middle Earth so I need something to get on with.