Enemy-Lore: Evil Men?

[Glorelendil]

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I'd like to add that the men who inhabit Wilderland are generally of a civilized nature beyond that of Southrons and Easterlings, and thus the demand to expect violence from them should be less of a burden, and thus less deserving of a calling which advocated hunting and killing them.

Wait, what?

You don't know that. Hell, some of the men who inhabit Wilderland are, racially, Easterlings; the Erringmen are descended of the Balchoth. Halberech the Wineseller and his daughter are Easterlings; they're from Dorwinion. so is Queen Una. Bain is half-Easterling.

There's no reason to think the Easterlings and Haradrim are any less civilized than the other races of Men.

Pretty sure he meant culturally, not genetically or individually.

But back on the topic of the redeemability of orcs, Tolkien's intent and commentary are interesting, of course, but ultimately this isn't about "truth" it's about fiction, narrative, and fun. So I'll choose whichever interpretation offers the best opportunity for storytelling, as long as it doesn't contradict the stories it's based on. And my opinion is that heroes struggling to do the right thing, while resisting the corruption of the shadow and facing their own weaknesses, are inherently more interesting than heroes who rationalize the most effective and efficient way to slaughter enemies.

That's in-character, of course. Meta-game theorycrafting of the most efficient way to kill them is totally kosher.

[Murcushio]

Pretty sure he meant culturally, not genetically or individually.

I am also prepared to argue that there's no reason to believe the Easterlings or Haradrim are culturally less civilized than the Northmen.

And my opinion is that heroes struggling to do the right thing, while resisting the corruption of the shadow and facing their own weaknesses, are inherently more interesting than heroes who rationalize the most effective and efficient way to slaughter enemies.

Well, on this we agree 100%. While I would have no problem with someone having Enemy-lore (Men) I would want them to have a better reason for it than simply wanting to kill their way across the Vales of Anduin. But I'd also want someone who had Enemy-lore (Whatever) to have a good reason, beyond just, like, REALLY hating wargs.

[Rocmistro]

Pretty sure he meant culturally, not genetically or individually.

I am also prepared to argue that there's no reason to believe the Easterlings or Haradrim are culturally less civilized than the Northmen.

If you are positing that the greater part of the men of Wilderland, and specifically, the cultures that are allowed per the TOR rulebook (which really should be what we are talking about since we're discussing the Slayer calling and it's associated traits, all of which implies we are talking about this within the context of the game) are no culturally different, in terms of moral relativeness, than Easterling and Southrons, then you are either being intellectually dishonest or have completely failed to understand Tolkien. There is a very basic and easy to understand reason why the Free Peoples are called the Free Peoples and the other ones are called slaves and minions and worshippers of Sauron.

Either way, I'm out of this conversation. Peace.

[Tolwen]

Maybe the difference comes down to whether the enemies in question are creations of the Enemy and are inherently evil and irredeemable (which has no analogy in the real world, unless you want to count the mice that infest my barn) versus those with free will whose "Hope has fallen below their Shadow" as it were.

Here I'd like to add Tolkien's observation about that. The topic is much more complicated than a simple "propagandistic hero tale" (of course pointed, but good to make the point) about immaculate heroes in shining armour
In the HoMe10 we learn:

But even before this wickedness of Morgoth [creating orcs] was suspected, the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery.
Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost. This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.

This topic is also hinted at in the Sil77:

[...]and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the Wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar.
-Of the the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor

Here the important points are

• Even though the orcs were made in this form by Melkor, at their core they remain Children of Ilúvatar, however corrupted.
• They loathe the Dark Lord who made them to this miserable existence.
• The creation of orcs was most hateful to Ilúvatar, as with this he condemned a great part of his Children to a miserable existence.

Together with the first quote, we see the difference between theological theory and practice. From the theological/philosophical POV, the orcs still remain Children of Ilúvatar and enjoy the same privileges ("remain within the law", "must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty", mercy must be granted) as men, though in the cruel reality of war this was not not always ("often" IMHO) heeded.

The The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings are first-hand reports of participants in the decisive war, and certainly no theological treatises of the design of the world. Thus they lack these finer points that Tolkien elaborated upon in the "background" to these tales (which thus show only the surface and experiences of limited actors within Middle-earth).

So coming back to the original point, the orcs may be irredeemable by the power of Elves or Men, but that does not deprive them of their status as Children of Ilúvatar, for whom the same law applies. Whether this law is observed is another matter (due to the various limits of the acting people), but it still is inalienable. In this context the "right way" of acting treating orcs that may plead for mercy is highlighting. And the fact that this was recognized and known (at least by the Wise) is good to know as well.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Glorelendil]

I was describing how free peoples might view orcs and evil men as inherently different, and therefore have a different view of specializing in the slaying of one vs. the other. I wasn't trying to defend it theologically.

[Tolwen]

I was describing how free peoples might view orcs and evil men as inherently different, and therefore have a different view of specializing in the slaying of one vs. the other. I wasn't trying to defend it theologically.

And my reply was not geared towards this specific mechanics point, but the initially quoted one that one don't have to care about moral implications when killing orcs, as they are irredeemable anyway - which is a theological justification for killing them indiscriminately. And Tolkien denies just that.
In terms of TOR (Hope/Shadow) and according to the outlined thoughts of Tolkien, orcs would have an inborn extremely low Hope score which is very early (childhood or even birth?) eclipsed by Shadow, resulting in the well-known facts. But as they are - heavily distorted - Children of Ilúvatar, they do have Hope, even if extremely low and always below Shadow.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Glorelendil]

I'm sure all the Beornings and Bardings understand that.

[Tolwen]

I'm sure all the Beornings and Bardings understand that.

Or even the regular Dúnadan or Wood-elf. It happens all the time. But ignorance does not make it right. That is what Tolkien talks about in the quote from the HoMe10. Men and Elves fail even if they should not. That's a fact in Arda Marred.

Cheers
Tolwen