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Murcushio wrote:That starts breaking down after awhile, tho, doesn't it? I mean, if you run Darkening of Mirkwood straight-up (as an example) by about the two-thirds mark you're going to have people with Valour and Wisdom in the 4-6 range who have fought an honest-to-god dragon and encountered the Nazgul and the Werewolf of Mirkwood multiple times and walked away to brag about it later. Players might find it hard to believe that every single person in such a fellowship is psychologically burdened by hauling harmless bits of metal around.

The fatigue/psychological burden of carrying treasure is not the same as facing those threats so, no, I don't believe it breaks down. I didn't say it was a perfect fix but treasure is more fatiguing than just it's weight as it incorporates the energy spent making sure it is packed securely, isn't lost, or for more fragile items of treasure aren't broken. This is completely different to facing threats like the Werewolf of Mirkwood and shouldn't really be compared in my opinion. Consider that other items aren't just given encumbrance values solely based on weight but also how difficult they are to carry - their shape, fragility, etc I'm sure can all factor into the equation and should do.

Murcushio wrote:I'm curious, did you also alter the Standing rules? Making treasure a lot rarer also directly impacts people's ability to raise that, and usually people want to raise their Standing so they can participate in the Tale of Years or, at least, not be regarded as shiftless wanderers by their culture.

Yes. I think treasure is pretty uncommon in the game as written - I haven't altered that rate at all so my comment wasn't that my campaign was particularly different to any other game just that it doesn't have much treasure per se.

Or, more accurately, it's uncommon considering how much is needed to impact on character elements like Standing...

We discussed this in a different thread a couple of months ago and working through all the adventures in TfW the average treasure haul would only result in PCs being of Standing 2 (they'd be halfway to 3), assuming they spent all their treasure on Standing increasing and didn't need to maintain it at year end. I think that pretty much proves how rare treasure is, or perhaps, that Standing costs too much to increase - which is the conclusion I drew from it and therefore altered the cost levels in my campaign.

Rich H wrote:in TfW the average treasure haul would only result in PCs being of Standing 2 (they'd be halfway to 3), assuming they spent all their treasure on Standing increasing and didn't need to maintain it at year end. I think that pretty much proves how rare treasure is, or perhaps, that Standing costs too much to increase

You're assuming that the total amount of treasure in the adventures was carefully measured and meant to be indicative of what you're "supposed" to get. I don't believe this is the case. Loremasters should make available as much treasure as they deem proper for their campaign. If quick increase in standing is desired, make more treasure available.

Stormcrow wrote:

Rich H wrote:in TfW the average treasure haul would only result in PCs being of Standing 2 (they'd be halfway to 3), assuming they spent all their treasure on Standing increasing and didn't need to maintain it at year end. I think that pretty much proves how rare treasure is, or perhaps, that Standing costs too much to increase

You're assuming that the total amount of treasure in the adventures was carefully measured and meant to be indicative of what you're "supposed" to get. I don't believe this is the case. Loremasters should make available as much treasure as they deem proper for their campaign. If quick increase in standing is desired, make more treasure available.

There's a lot of treasure available in TfW (so I wouldn't want to add more to these or my adventures) but the impact on Standing, considering what the characters go through, in my opinion isn't comparative. That's why I started off thinking treasure was rare but quickly altered my view that it wasn't; Standing is too expensive to raise. Particularly so if you consider the impact of encumbrance and treasure - PC's would really struggle to transport all the treasure available in those adventures so adding more would just exacerbate things. So, there's all this treasure that you guys can't effectively carry so don't think you'll be raising your Standing beyond a ranking of 1, maybe 2 if you're lucky. For me that's closing off a whole avenue of the game so it's why I reduced the costs to increase Standing, and also created more detailed Holding rules to supplement Standing increases. This works for my game, not saying it will for everyone's, but it's an opinion shared.

Rich H wrote:PC's would really struggle to transport all the treasure available in those adventures so adding more would just exacerbate things.

These adventures will be separated by fellowship phases, wherein you will take your treasure home and invest it. If you get so much treasure on one adventure that you can't bring it all back with you, you can choose to hide it, then recover it on your way home during the fellowship phase.

I haven't seen the survey of treasure in Tales from Wilderland, but I doubt there's an inordinate amount of treasure in any single adventure.

Stormcrow wrote:I haven't seen the survey of treasure in Tales from Wilderland, but I doubt there's an inordinate amount of treasure in any single adventure.

Can't remember off hand but I was making reference to adding more treasure when there's already enough, hence why I felt that it's the Standing rules that need looking at and not Treasure amounts within the game. Adding more would be really jarring for my group as they already feel there's enough lying around *but* that isn't enough to raise Standing. Therefore if you want Standing to be more of a trait that can be developed, but don't want to add more treasure as you already feel it occurs too much in the game, then the only option is to address how much it costs to raise Standing. Other options are to create a Renown trait, effectively working in tandem with Standing, that can be increased based on great deeds performed. Foreign cultures can be affected by such things and I don't see why home cultures can't either.

Rich H wrote:

Stormcrow wrote:I haven't seen the survey of treasure in Tales from Wilderland, but I doubt there's an inordinate amount of treasure in any single adventure.

Can't remember off hand but I was making reference to adding more treasure when there's already enough, hence why I felt that it's the Standing rules that need looking at and not Treasure amounts within the game. Adding more would be really jarring for my group as they already feel there's enough lying around *but* that isn't enough to raise Standing. Therefore if you want Standing to be more of a trait that can be developed, but don't want to add more treasure as you already feel it occurs too much in the game, then the only option is to address how much it costs to raise Standing. Other options are to create a Renown trait, effectively working in tandem with Standing, that can be increased based on great deeds performed. Foreign cultures can be affected by such things and I don't see why home cultures can't either.

You're overlooking the obvious, Rich - reducing the penalty for carrying treasure. Which makes it easier to extract what treasure is there. (A return to the lair, for example, could easily net 30-50 treasure points...)

aramis wrote:You're overlooking the obvious, Rich - reducing the penalty for carrying treasure. Which makes it easier to extract what treasure is there. (A return to the lair, for example, could easily net 30-50 treasure points...)

It was certainly an option I looked at but, as previously mentioned, for me and my players that wouldn't have addressed the issue that we felt there was already enough treasure on hand but it wasn't enough to raise Standing to a level we thought should be an option after the various adventures in TfW. It's why we eventually went with lowering the costs of raising Standing - therefore not needing to increase treasure amounts or carry more. That would be an element of the game we didn't want to focus on - ie, going back and forth picking up treasure, or carrying more, as it feels too much like D&D.

Here is the thread that Rich is referring to:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1693&p=15224#p15224

...where I break down the amount of treasure given over the course of Tales From Wilderland. Playing all the published stuff (including Marsh Bell) up to the end nets about 65 Treasure per Adventurer (5 heroes), assuming everything goes right and they find all the hidden goodies, social encounters, etc.

Like Rich says, that feels like a LOT of treasure, and I have mixed feelings about that as well. In reality, though, it only gets you to standing rating of 2, with about most of the way to standing rating of 3. Again, that's if you find ALL of it and commit ALL your treasure to Standing. That feels very "off" to me.

My solution would probably also be to lower costs for increasing standing, or figure out another way to advance it. I'm not a huge fan of the 1 TP = 1 FP, since it seems like you could easily have a couple smaller things that worth a lot in their stead. I get Rich's mental fatigue system and I think it works ok, if not a bit heavy handed of an explanation as to why treasure is so fatiguing. (as he said, it's not a perfect fix, but it does make some sense)

In either case, as I said in the previous post, I really would discourage Loremasters to "mess" with their characters about going after treasure, given the very limited nature of what treasure can do in this game. It's just NOT going to really break your game.