Rivendell Preview 1: What's in it?

[Tolwen]

Can you give me a book/chapter reference for that? I want to read up on it.
Thanks!

Sure.

Then so utterly was Angmar defeated that not a man nor an orc of that realm remained west of the Mountains.
---LotR.Appendix A (Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion)

I forgot the "west of the mountains" part in my OP (thus the reference to "eastern side" in its further course.

They [the Éothéod] loved best the plains, and delighted in horses and in all feats of horsemanship, but there were many men in the middle vales ofAnduin in those days, and moreover the shadow of Dol Guldur was lengthening; when therefore they heard of the overthrow of the Witch-king, they sought more room inthe North, and drove away the remnants of the people of Angmar on the east side ofthe Mountains.
---LotR.Appendix A (The House of Eorl)

Taken together, they describe quite well that Angmar was not only defeated on the battlefield (e.g. enemy warriors and orcs killed in battle), but also an extensive "mopping up" campaign to clear the area of Angmar once and for all. If we consider that in such a world, the army (which is encountered on the battlefield) is only a small fraction numbers-wise of the whole population, it is left to the imagination what the victorious Gondorian army (plus the remnants of Arthedain's one) did when they marched into Angmar proper, so that "not a man nor an orc of that realm remained west of the Mountains". And for those who fled eastward (the North is no real option here) faced the Éothéod shortly afterwards...

Cheers
Tolwen

[Glorelendil]

Ok, but that leaves plenty of narrative room for survivors in the East, even if they were "driven out" of there.

[Tolwen]

Ok, but that leaves plenty of narrative room for survivors in the East, even if they were "driven out" of there.

The problem is that there's not much room left. Eastern Angmar was occupied by the Éothéod, north of it is waste. East comes Mirkwood (not really an option) and then already the pre-Dale Northmen settlements around Erebor (where the Dwarves show up in a few years). The territory of eastern Angmar is extremely locked between several geographical features as well as already settled (and claimed) land. IMO there is not much room for loyal Angmarrim to settle without having to contend with people already living there.
And their supposed quite evil outlook would not make them welcome as new neighbours in any case.
Of course the "drove away" can also mean driven into Mirkwood or the Northern Waste. The first will raise fierce opposition by the Wood-elves, while the second will mean - likely - death in an inhospitable land.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Glorelendil]

Back to the West.

EDIT: I mean, there's also plenty of narrative room for explaining their extinction, if that's what you prefer. It all depends on what story you want to tell.

[Tolwen]

Yep. Let's see what is in Rivendell.

Cheers
Tolwen

[Glorelendil]

Oh I make no predictions about what C7 chose. Just having fun thinking about what LMs could add to their own campaigns.

[aramis]

Don't forget he probably had long hair, was unshaved, bathed seldom and "travelled a lot, sleeping under the stars without a place to call home",...

Well, the ill-shaven part is movie stuff. Tolkien says that those with elven blood (and I'd bet that Elros' line falls under that as well, even if distantly related) lacked facial hair. I'd have to dig up the precise quote if you're interested.

Cheers
Tolwen

I'd appreciate the quote, even if the others don't.

I've always gione with a "Mutton chops" look for elves of age (≥500yo), but I know where that comes from: the Rankin-Bass movie and the cotemporous illustrated novel version of The Hobbit.

[Tolwen]

I'd appreciate the quote, even if the others don't.

It's in UT:

In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends" (with a reference to the speeches between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the KingV 9, cited above).
---UT.IV The History of Galadriel and Celeborn and of Amroth King of Lórien (Amroth an Nimrodel; near the end of that section)

In that context it refers to Imrahil, but Aragorn counts likewise (at the very least), given how Tolkien stresses his exalted lineage

Cheers
Tolwen

[roodie]

We’ll be starting the pre-order for Rivendell

Thank you for ruining my hobby spending plans for this summer. AGAIN.

[Falenthal]

Ok, but that leaves plenty of narrative room for survivors in the East, even if they were "driven out" of there.

The problem is that there's not much room left. Eastern Angmar was occupied by the Éothéod, north of it is waste. East comes Mirkwood (not really an option) and then already the pre-Dale Northmen settlements around Erebor (where the Dwarves show up in a few years). The territory of eastern Angmar is extremely locked between several geographical features as well as already settled (and claimed) land. IMO there is not much room for loyal Angmarrim to settle without having to contend with people already living there.
And their supposed quite evil outlook would not make them welcome as new neighbours in any case.
Of course the "drove away" can also mean driven into Mirkwood or the Northern Waste. The first will raise fierce opposition by the Wood-elves, while the second will mean - likely - death in an inhospitable land.

Cheers
Tolwen

What about taking refuge in Mount Gundabad? It's neither west nor east of the Misty Mountains. After the fall of Angmar (TE 1975) and until the cleansing of the stronghold in the Dwarves and Orcs War (TE 2793-2799), they angmarim men would have had plenty of time to recover and settle new lands on either side of the Misty Mountains, though probably secret and keeping a low profile. In these period, the Éothed were already rohirrim, and the dúnedain had been scattered for a long time. The ruins of Angmar and the north valley of the Anduin would be mostly free of enemies for them.

Like Elfcrusher said, just having fun thinking of "what if...".