The Restless Dead

Adventure in the world of J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings. Learn more at our website: http://www.cubicle7.co.uk/our-games/the-one-ring/
Glorelendil
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Re: The Restless Dead

Post by Glorelendil » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:37 pm

Stormcrow wrote:Yes, I was making the same distinction as Wikipedia: it means person, and oh, by the way, that doesn't mean an undead like you may think.
Ok, now I'm confused. Both at what you think I think, and why you're being snarky about it.

I am not claiming/suggesting that the old definition of "wight" meant undead. I am saying it doesn't necessarily mean "living", because that's a distinction that wasn't relevant before the modern usage.

I am, however, claiming that Tolkien most likely envisioned his wights as something other than living, breathing, bleeding "people".

Analogy: The definition of "urchin" is "a mischievous young child, especially one who is poorly or raggedly dressed." It doesn't say anything about living, dead, or undead. If, however, in the future the word "urchin" takes on a meaning as a kind of undead, dictionaries of the future will probably point out that in the early 21st century an urchin meant a "living" child.

And if I write a story today and include a "grave urchin" that lives in tombs and consumes life essences, I probably don't mean that it's actually living.

That's how I think Tolkien was using the word "wight".
Last edited by Glorelendil on Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rocmistro
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Re: The Restless Dead

Post by Rocmistro » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:42 pm

This is interesting. I did not know that Wight just originally meant a living thing, and that it had no connection to undead.
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Re: The Restless Dead

Post by Stormcrow » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:31 pm

Elfcrusher wrote:
Stormcrow wrote:Yes, I was making the same distinction as Wikipedia: it means person, and oh, by the way, that doesn't mean an undead like you may think.
Ok, now I'm confused. Both at what you think I think, and why you're being snarky about it.
Eh? I wasn't trying to be snarky. Was it because I didn't use quotation marks where I wasn't quoting?

Yes, I was making the same distinction as Wikipedia: "it means person, and oh, by the way, that doesn't mean an undead person like you may think."

Not what YOU think; what the reader of the Wikipedia article thinks.

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Re: The Restless Dead

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:18 pm

Stormcrow wrote:By the way, when Tolkien used the term barrow-wight, he was using wight in its old sense: a living person. A barrow-wight is simply a barrow-person. It was Dungeons & Dragons that made wight mean undead corpse.
Stormcrow, you might want to go back and re-read the chapter "Fog on the Barrow-downs" from LotR Book 1. The Barrow-wights were not traditional ghosts, but they also were definitely not living Men. They were evil spirits inhabiting the bodies of ancient corpses.
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Mim
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Re: The Restless Dead

Post by Mim » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:39 pm

Well, here's what Tolkien wrote in Book VII, Appendix A Annals of the Kings and Rulers:

In the days of Argeleb II...It was at this time that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there.

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Re: The Restless Dead

Post by Stormcrow » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:35 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Stormcrow wrote:By the way, when Tolkien used the term barrow-wight, he was using wight in its old sense: a living person. A barrow-wight is simply a barrow-person. It was Dungeons & Dragons that made wight mean undead corpse.
Stormcrow, you might want to go back and re-read the chapter "Fog on the Barrow-downs" from LotR Book 1. The Barrow-wights were not traditional ghosts, but they also were definitely not living Men. They were evil spirits inhabiting the bodies of ancient corpses.
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Mim
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Re: The Restless Dead

Post by Mim » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:48 pm

Sorry Stormcrow, you've always helped us & I was just trying to help in return. :oops:

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Re: The Restless Dead

Post by venger » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:53 am

I have read the use of wight before to describe a living person that is gaunt, emaciated or otherwise wretched.
Like "The beggar was just a bare wight from the poor scrappings he received from this town"

Then there are the fantasy wights.

The following passages leads me to believe Tolkien had something else in mind, something supernatural

"Out of the east the biting wind was blowing. To his right there loomed against the westward stars a dark black shape. A great barrow stood there.
‘Where are you?’ he cried again, both angry and afraid.
‘Here!’ said a voice, deep and cold, that seemed to come out of the ground. ‘I am waiting for you!’"


and also

"Suddenly a song began: a cold murmur, rising and falling. The voice seemed far away and immeasurably dreary, sometimes high in the air and thin, sometimes like a low moan from the ground.
Out of the formless stream of sad but horrible sounds, strings of words would now and again shape themselves: grim, hard, cold words, heartless and miserable."

FotR- Fog on the Barrow Downs

Those lines about a deep, cold, voice that seemed to come out of the ground, far away sometimes high and thin sometimes a low moan from the ground.

That creeps me out

We are so attuned to voices and vocal inflections imagine if those inflections came with sound effects like this, It would shatter some people's minds, probably mine included, its like a power unto itself having a voice like that.

Anyway, Restless Dead.
I'm having a distinct bent towards them having the same capabilities as a man physically.
Rudimentary intellect, perhaps even memories of its life, but too dim to think much outside the box and has little own-ambition. Doesn't eat, doesn't sleep. Doesn't get in a hurry unless motivated by the powerful will of a master who has subdued them.

How they became Restless?
In my campaign the short version is... Ancient days ago there was a great battle in a blighted land. The army of men was obliterated and the bloodshed so great in time it killed the heart of these woods.

Powerful Orc Shaman desecrated the ground and it has soured over the ages. (Pet Semetary for people)

In recent times its power has been waning but there is yet some "life" from the unhallowed ground. Anyone buried there (except elves) may eventually rise up as Restless Dead. (LM makes that call)

There is a greater Secret Shadow at the heart of my current campaign I created named Gorcrow. I will share him after the game this weekend after he is revealed.

The Restless walked there, and Gorcrow eventually found its source and learned how to raise the Restless Dead.
He is not indiscriminate, and there are limits to raising them, more specifically he raises the mightiest of his main foes, leaders of his great enemies over the ages, and there have been many, and there are a handful that are special to Gorcrow. He keeps them and torments them. Such is the fate of those who directly oppose Gorcrow

Many remember their past but have no real will of their own. They have a survival instinct and can be easily motivated by their hatred of the living whom they envy.

When he is of a mind to, Gorcrow may visit them from time to time and remind them of their error having made an enemy of him, and that this is their eternal punishment, being Gorcrow's Fools.

On occasion Gorcrow can only muster small squads of them at a time but has a hundred dead scattered throughout the dead forest. Within those unhallowed grounds, which spans a dozen acres in my campaign, he can stir up a half dozen per expenditure of 1 hate and motivate them to the point of attack.

On their own, they dont do much of anything except mill about. When any living approach their hatred kindles and they will gather a few of themselves with no leadership and attempt an ambush.

Anyone they kill will be dragged back to the Dead Woods and left to rot or raise up. They do not pursue far out of the Dead Woods

Outside the Dead Woods Gorcrow may control one squad. If that squad is lost he must return to the dead Woods to stir up a new squad which would take days.

He controls them in secret and doesn't actually participate in battle he leads the dead to, Gorcrow has a motive, it is not to kill the Fellows, it is to turn them to Shadow through deception, guile, offers of information, offers of help... like saving them from the zombie hoards...

The creepy thing, I havent done this yet... but the Restless will actually approach and talk to the Fellowship, basically trying to convince them it will be easier if they dont resist, and they will be offered a painless clean death if they cooperate. lol

In my campaign the Major Undertaking is, "Consecrate the Unhallowed Ground" so the Dead rise no more.

So anyway, that's the short of it, and I am still wondering about their speed. Gorcrow might have to spend another hate to move them along faster?
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venger
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Re: The Restless Dead

Post by venger » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:35 am

I'm insane, aren't I..
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Stormcrow
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Re: The Restless Dead

Post by Stormcrow » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:12 pm

You ARE named after a pale blue giant with no nose and only one horn on his helmet...

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