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aramis wrote:Hobbits are anachronistically advanced by comparison. Hobbits appear to be 19th C tech in a 10th C world.

Several of those quotes referred to dwarves' packs, both Thorin's party and Dain's people.

Then there's:

“Give them this,’ said Gandalf, searching in his pack and drawing out a leathern flask.”

So maybe dwarves and wizards are anachronistic, too.

Or maybe...nutty theory here...it's not anachronistic because it's a fictional world. I know, I know...crazy talk.

And look at this find from the Silmarillion:

“And when men sprang up in fear, he laughed, and threw back his hood, and beneath his wide cloak he bore a great pack; and in the light of the fire Túrin looked again on the face of Beleg Cúthalion.”

Murcushio wrote:

aramis wrote:Hobbits are anachronistically advanced by comparison. Hobbits appear to be 19th C tech in a 10th C world.

Well... sort of. They didn't have firearms, or steam engines. <snip>

A very nice overview. Still, I agree with aramis' assessment. I don't think any of us would even raise an eyebrow if a lost manuscript surfaced describing how 'the terrible fire at the Old Woolen Mill was prevented from spreading over the dry fields only by the efforts of the valiant gaffer volunteer fire brigade and their wondrous tea kettle Engine'.

Elfcrusher wrote:
Why not put all of it in a pack? Because historically backpacks are a recent invention? Pfffffft.

I think this is what Tolkien had in mind regarding 'packs'.






These are from the first quarter 16th century. So, 300 to 500 years in the 'future', but consistent with Tolkien's hodgepodge period item cherry-picking. Those packs look reasonably secure.

Again, it wouldn't surprise me if Hobbits manufactured and used backpacks (straps, buckles, rivets) straight out of the Great War (WWI).

Given the amount of gear carried, and the specific references to the weight of the packs, I imagine he was envisioning something larger.

I'm envisioning something larger, anyway. Which, to me, is the important part.

Elfcrusher wrote:Given the amount of gear carried, and the specific references to the weight of the packs, I imagine he was envisioning something larger.

I'm envisioning something larger, anyway. Which, to me, is the important part.

It also puts you on the outlier - the illustrators of Tolkien's works and the Filmmakers all go with more medieval kit for everyone BUT the hobbs...

And I recall one version with the dwarven pack being nought but a bag carried over the shoulder, but tied to the belt.

And in thinking about your quote from the Silmarilion - it can't be that big a pack - he hid it under his cloak. Even a WW I style backpack (I've had one - US Cav issue for wear while riding) won't be hidden under a cloak. A low-slung pack, sure... like a belt box on the lower back and buttocks.

Note that a belt and blanket can be used to make a decent pack - lay your load in the middle, fold the sides over to make a tube; if you can do so, roll it so you have at least double layers around. Slide the belt up under it at least a foot from the edge, and sit on that same edge; affix the belt. Have a buddy hand you the other end, which you pull over a shoulder and stuff through the belt... pull to keep the bottom of the load below the belt itself, and the belt tight enough it doesn't go anywhere... (Kilts are mighty useful...)

The descriptions overall imply 10th to 12th C tech, excepting the hobbits, with some elven magics doing modern things without modern tech. (Palantir = radio. Lamp of Balthi = battery lamp.)

in the end, do whatever works for your game, but don't be surprised if few share your views.

“Fili thought he could; so when he had stared a long while to get an idea of the direction, the others brought him a rope. They had several with them, and on the end of the longest they fastened one of the large iron hooks they had used for catching their packs to the straps about their shoulders. Fili took this in his hand, balanced it for a moment, and then flung it across the stream.”

That doesn't really match any of the various blanket tying tricks you describe (which sounds more like what Kenyan women do with their kangas).

Sooo...I think I'll stick with the fictional world Tolkien describes. Too much historical realism and pretty soon you're playing a character with a short lifespan and bad teeth.

Elfcrusher wrote:Given the amount of gear carried, and the specific references to the weight of the packs, I imagine he was envisioning something larger.

I'm envisioning something larger, anyway. Which, to me, is the important part.

Bundle packs can be quite large, but I can't imagine them being comfortable on the back. But these type of 'packs' dovetail nicely with the quote you mentioned:

Elfcrusher wrote:..the others brought him a rope...and on the end of the longest they fastened one of the large iron hooks they had used for catching their packs to the straps about their shoulders.

Elfcrusher wrote: Sooo...I think I'll stick with the fictional world Tolkien describes. Too much historical realism and pretty soon you're playing a character with a short lifespan and bad teeth.

Frakkin' nothing-but [quoted-for-truth]-net on this right here.

Evening wrote:

Elfcrusher wrote:Given the amount of gear carried, and the specific references to the weight of the packs, I imagine he was envisioning something larger.

I'm envisioning something larger, anyway. Which, to me, is the important part.

Bundle packs can be quite large, but I can't imagine them being comfortable on the back. But these type of 'packs' dovetail nicely with the quote you mentioned:

Elfcrusher wrote:..the others brought him a rope...and on the end of the longest they fastened one of the large iron hooks they had used for catching their packs to the straps about their shoulders.

He's fixated on including needless anachronism, and convinced that Tolkien supports his view. I don't see it, the artists for the various published editions apparently didn't. And a "Pack" can mean any of a great number of things, which range from the use of a spare kilt or blanket, to sling bags, to modern conformal frame packs.

And one of his quotes subtly contradicts a significant framepack, or even a significant modern bag-style backpack (like most of us used in school).

Tolkien is pretty good about the technology being medieval or magical in Hobbit and LOTR, excepting for the hobbits. (Even for the hobbits, it's limited to non-martial stuff; mostly farming tech.) What I've read of other books shows similar tech base - they're not carrying a lot.

And the travel and encumbrance rules don't provide a lot of support for a backpack; it does mention a "...and a light pack on a traveller’s back..." but that could easily be a hook or strap affixed belt pouch of 15x25x10cm, with a blanket-roll tied on. And such a small pack would fit nicely with the encumbrance and travel rules... it doesn't allow much in the way of treasure nor food, thus requiring forage along the way.

And if one doesn't need to forage, 15-20 miles a day on a hurried march is quite doable with light packs... Many Alaskans complete a 23 mile course every year as a one-day event (called the walk for hope); I know four blokes who completed it in 14 hours in full chain (long sleeved hauberks, mailed knee-high boots, mailed gauntlets, carried pot helms, and rattan weapon simulators, plus hospitaller cloaks and tabards, and a couple kilos of rations and a couple liters of water... the food and drink tucked inside the belted tabard (for 3 of them) or on a belt pouch (one of them). Of course, this was on what would count as good road (bicycle trails) with ready potable water every mile. (Yes, these were SCA members. And they all made it to fighter practice on friday and to the event on sunday, so it wasn't like they simply collapsed from exhaustion after.)

I just don't believe the word "anachronism" is even applicable to a fictional world. A fictional world with dragons and elves and magic rings, even.

And saying "...except for the Hobbits" is kind of silly when talking about two books that are, essentially, all about Hobbits. Nor do other cultures seem very shocked or surprised by the Hobbits' "technology". (Except maybe smoking.)

I don't know how you reconcile "Tolkien was an expert on history and a fanatic about detail, and he was envisioning a very specific time period and culture" with "oops he somehow forgot to apply it to his main characters" but you seem very intent on trying.

He uses the word "pack" repeatedly. Endlessly, even. (The quotes I used were just the first ones I grabbed.) But I couldn't find any references to the other systems of carrying gear that you describe. No descriptions of Dori asking the others to wait for him while he ties and belts and straps on various accoutrements.

Sometimes realism gets in the way of storytelling. And both LotR and TOR are supposed to be about storytelling, not history.