Contact between The Chieftains and The Stewards

[Rocmistro]

I disagree with that. There was other evidence of his right:

-The hands of a king are the hands of a healer; a prophecy which he fulfilled by the healing of Eowyn and Faramir.
-He bore Anduril/Narsil
-The Standards of the Grey Company, and their Allegiance
-The testimony of Elrond (and to a lesser extent, Galadriel)
-The frekkin' ring of Barahir.

I think Denethor would have had a very hard time of it, with the pressure of the War over, mounted against this evidence.

[Murcushio]

I disagree with that. There was other evidence of his right:

-The hands of a king are the hands of a healer; a prophecy which he fulfilled by the healing of Eowyn and Faramir.
-He bore Anduril/Narsil
-The Standards of the Grey Company, and their Allegiance
-The testimony of Elrond (and to a lesser extent, Galadriel)
-The frekkin' ring of Barahir.

I think Denethor would have had a very hard time of it, with the pressure of the War over, mounted against this evidence.

With the exception of Anduril, Arvedui had all of those things as well, plus was married to a literal Princess of Gondor, and Gondor told him to go pound sand.

Now, admittedly, Arvedui never showed up with an undead army to save Gondor. But the legal precedent had been long and well-established in Gondor that the North-Kingdoms claim to the seat of the High King (left vacant since Elendil) didn't count. Denethor could politely thank Aragorn for his help and still refuse to kneel before him, forcing the other Lords of Gondor to pick sides. Who thinks that Faramir is going to turn against his dad for a guy he barely knows? Or Imrahil against hid brother-in-law?

[Beran]

Just to play Devil's Advocate here.

-The hands of a king are the hands of a healer; a prophecy which he fulfilled by the healing of Eowyn and Faramir.

Aragorn had training in the ways of a healer. So? I'm pretty sure all Rangers have had that training. Prophecy alone is shakey grounds to base kingship on.

-He bore Anduril/Narsil

Again, so? An item can be found, given or stolen to/by a person.

-The Standards of the Grey Company, and their Allegiance

To be honest I can't remember the significance of this point.

-The testimony of Elrond (and to a lesser extent, Galadriel)

True, this one is a little harder to refute. Particualrly given Elrond's renown. However, from Denethor's POV said testimony could be viewed as an agenda on Elrond's part.

-The frekkin' ring of Barahir.

Basically, same points as above for Narsil. A Ring a king doesn't make.

I think Aragorn, Gandalf, et al would have had a hard time of it proving Aragorn's claim based on heirlooms and prophecy alone. Remember Aragorn's House has "been long bereft of lordship". Aragorn has no patents of nobility, no documented pedigree...in other words nothing that would stand up in court. I think if Denethor felt like being contrary, and I'm sure he would have, he would have been within his right to refuse the claim. As you say Aragorn only became king because of what he did for Gondor during the War and because Faramir and Imrahil backed his claim.

Of course if things went this way it would not have made a good story.

[Southron]

IIRC either in HoME of his Letters, Tolkien originally was going to have Denethor live and contest Aragorn's claim and perhaps be persuaded by Faramir and Imrahil?

Hopefully, someone who has the books can verify this.

SL

[Rocmistro]

Murcushio/Beran:

As you say, but that's a helluva lot of evidence to refute when taken all at once. To come across just Anduril or just the Ring of Barahir...ok...but to claim both, along with everything else? That's a lot of evidence to discount. And it's not so much a question of whether or not Denethor would have supported him, as all the other noble families, houses, etc.

Beran, about the Grey Company, the point was just that he (Aragorn) had the blessing of all the other Rangers of the North; they were not split or unsure of his role as their chieftain or their acknowledgment of him as Isildur's heir. I don't think they would have sent the Standard of the North along with Halbarad and the other members; those things were arranged as much as a declaration of office by Elrond as they were a fighting bodyguard for Aragorn in his time of need. Again, just that it was one piece of the evidence, and when taken in tandem with everything else, I think would have been enough for Denethor to begrudgingly yield his position. It's not as if a legal document declaring bloodlines and such, in Tolkien's world, would have been needed or accepted as the proof to end the argument.

And finally, the bit about healing with athelas; I'd have to look this up more but I'm pretty sure that while all Rangers could use Athelas plant to heal with some affect, that only one as great as Aragorn could use it to bring someone back from the Black Breath and/or a sorcerous wound (ie, struggle with the Witch King). This is an important detail in establishing Aragorn as not just one of noble bloodline but the rightful heir.

[Murcushio]

Murcushio/Beran:

As you say, but that's a helluva lot of evidence to refute when taken all at once. To come across just Anduril or just the Ring of Barahir...ok, to claim both, along with everything else? That's a lot of evidence to discount. And it's not so much a question of whether or not Denethor would have supported him, as all the other noble families, houses, etc.

Oh, to be clear: I don't think that Denethor would try to deny that Aragorn were a direct descendant of Isildur and the Chieftain of the Northern Dunedain and the rightful King... of Arnor.

Denethor isn't an idiot and I don't think he'd lower himself to lying or deluding himself with regard to Aragorn. He would absolutely acknowledge Aragorn as Isildur's Heir. He would then follow that up with "So what?". The legal precedent in Gondor is that you have to be Anarion's heir to inherit. That, in fact, is Denethor's formal title: Steward of the House of Anarion.

A thousand years ago, Isildur's line tried to press a claim and Gondor's answer was not just "no" but "HELL no." You know Denethor is going to lean on that precedent for all its worth. He'd be all like "Go be King in Arnor, leave us alone."

[Beran]

On the Grey Companies:

I don't think Denethor held any Ranger in high regard. His own son was Captain of the Rangers of Ithilien, and that didn't earn him any points with Daddy.

Let's look at this situation as a court would...let's face it a court would be involved in a transfer of power like this. It could be argued, I think, that given his longevity Elrond could have come into ownership of all the items of kingship and simply given them to Aragon to use in his "claim". Now, I know this isn't true, but Denethor doesn't have the foreknowledge of the reader.

On Anduil/Narsil

I can totally see Denethor paraphrasing Monty Python;

"You think you're king because some saucy Elven tart threw a broken scimatar at you?"

[Rocmistro]

Denethor isn't an idiot and I don't think he'd lower himself to lying or deluding himself with regard to Aragorn. He would absolutely acknowledge Aragorn as Isildur's Heir. He would then follow that up with "So what?". The legal precedent in Gondor is that you have to be Anarion's heir to inherit. That, in fact, is Denethor's formal title: Steward of the House of Anarion.

A thousand years ago, Isildur's line tried to press a claim and Gondor's answer was not just "no" but "HELL no." You know Denethor is going to lean on that precedent for all its worth. He'd be all like "Go be King in Arnor, leave us alone."

Hrm...this is a really interesting concept, and one I had never entertained. But now, if that is true, does Aragorn have any legitimate/legal claim to the Kingship of Gondor? I would have thought they would have backed up the bloodline all the way to Anarion, and when no one was found, defaulted one generation back to Elendril, then traced his bloodline down the other son (Isildur) to get to Aragorn.

In fact, the more I think about it, what you're saying can't be right; they (the Gondorian Court) knew there was no one left of the line of Anarion...and if the Stewards were meant to act as "placeholders" until a rightful heir came, then they had to have been waiting, by default, for an heir from Isildur's line (whether or not they liked this fact or would have actually supported it, is in fact a different matter altogether, and I'm sure the level of support would have changed from Steward to Steward.) If they knew no one was left from Anarion's line, and they had no intention of ever acknowledging someone from Isildur's line, why not just coronate a new King to bind the land together?

[Murcushio]

Denethor isn't an idiot and I don't think he'd lower himself to lying or deluding himself with regard to Aragorn. He would absolutely acknowledge Aragorn as Isildur's Heir. He would then follow that up with "So what?". The legal precedent in Gondor is that you have to be Anarion's heir to inherit. That, in fact, is Denethor's formal title: Steward of the House of Anarion.

A thousand years ago, Isildur's line tried to press a claim and Gondor's answer was not just "no" but "HELL no." You know Denethor is going to lean on that precedent for all its worth. He'd be all like "Go be King in Arnor, leave us alone."

Hrm...this is a really interesting concept, and one I had never entertained. But now, if that is true, does Aragorn have any legitimate/legal claim to the Kingship of Gondor? I would have thought they would have backed up the bloodline all the way to Anarion, and when no one was found, defaulted one generation back to Elendril, then traced his bloodline down the other son (Isildur) to get to Aragorn.

In fact, the more I think about it, what you're saying can't be right; they (the Gondorian Court) knew there was no one left of the line of Anarion...and if the Stewards were meant to act as "placeholders" until a rightful heir came, then they had to have been waiting, by default, for an heir from Isildur's line (whether or not they liked this fact or would have actually supported it, is in fact a different matter altogether, and I'm sure the level of support would have changed from Steward to Steward.) If they knew no one was left from Anarion's line, and they had no intention of ever acknowledging someone from Isildur's line, why not just coronate a new King to bind the land together?

Ooo, okay, this is a fun story!

Here's how it all went down, back in the day.

When the Realms-in-Exile were founded, Elendil was the High King. He ruled both Gondor and Arnor from his seat at Annuminas. He committed the rule of Gondor in cojoint manner to his sons Isildur and Anarion, as fiefs held in the name of their father, the High King. (Isildur ruling from Minas Ithil, Anarion ruling from Minas Anor.) Elendil himself ruled Arnor directly; in Gondor he was High King, in Arnor he was King AND High King. He intended for this state of affairs to continue.

The Last Alliance happens. Elendil and Anarion die. Isildur spends some time committing the rule in the south to Meneldil, Anarion's son and heir, before departing to the north to take up his position as High King. That's important; Isildur intended to continue ruling both realms as High King, as his father had before, and to pass that position on eventually to his eldest son, Elendur.

Isildur and Elendur never get home. They die at the Gladden Fields, as do all of Isildur's other sons save for Valandil, a small child being fostered at Imladris.

Valandil eventually inherits the position of King of Arnor... but, crucially, not that of High King. Meneldil doesn't do anything so outre as to formally renounce loyalty, but Arnor is a long way away from Gondor and it got hurt much worse in the Last Alliance than Gondor did. Valandil and his heirs never push the issue; indeed, Arnor ceases to exist less than a thousand years later, while Gondor waxes in power and might.

Fast forward a couple thousand years, to TA 1944. King Ondoher of Gondor and all his sons die in battle, leaving the throne vacant with no clear successor. Arvedui, King of Arnor (later called Arvedui Last-King for, well, obvious reasons) tries to claim the throne of Gondor, because he's married to Ondoher's last surviving child (his daughter, Firiel) but more importantly because he's the Heir of Isildur.

This claim was rejected. From Appendix A of Lord of the Rings:

The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anarion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we havenot heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."

To this Arvedui replied: "Elendil had two sons, of whom Isildur was the elder and the heir of his father. We have heard that the name of Elendil stands to this day at the head of the line of the Kings of Gondor, since he was accounted the high king of all the lands of the Dunedain. While Elendil still lived, the cojoint rule in the South was committed to his sons; but when Elendil fell, Isildur departed to take up the high kingship of his father, and committed the rule in the South in like manner to the son of his brother. He did not relinquish his royalty in Gondor, nor intend that the realm of Elendil should be divided forever."

Now, it has to be said; Arvedui is 100% correct here and the Council of Gondor is totally wrong. Just because they've been doing things a certain way for two thousand years means that it was the proper way to do things in the eyes of the people who set things up. But the Council ruled in Gondor, and Arvedui ruled a tiny successor state that wouldn't exist thirty years later, and he had no power to press the issue.

The Council selects Earnil, a victorious general of the royal house, to be King of Gondor. Earnil is a valid descendant of Anarion, the great-great grandson of King Telumehtar Umbardacil. Earnil leaves the crown to Earnur. Earnur, because he is a giant idiot, accepts the challenge of the Witch-King to single combat, rides to Minas Morgul alone, and dies horribly.

I'd like to reiterate: Earnur? Was a giant idiot.

Earnur leaves Gondor heirless, again. Now, it wasn't that there were no people descended from the Kings still hanging around; there absolutely were. But there wasn't anyone who could be agreed upon in the Council enough to have a definitive claim. The Council deadlocks. Nobody wants to force the issue, because the last time somebody in Gondor forced the issue there was a little thing called the Kin-strife, which irreparably damaged Gondor, and if it happens again Gondor will probably permanently implode. So Mardil the Good Steward just keeps on ruling in Earnur's name.

It wasn't that there were no heirs of Anarion left, or that the Council didn't want to select a King to unite the Realm. It was that they were literally incapable of it.

Anyway, Mardil keeps ruling. Mardil dies, his son inherits. (The Stewardship had been made hereditary by the Kings; this was not a case of them just seizing power.) They exercise all the rights of the Kings, in the names of the Kings; Cirion, for example, had the power to give away a huge chunk of the realm to Eorl, and he did it in the name of the King.

Now we fast-forward to Denethor. Denethor doesn't much like Aragorn. Indeed, he likes the state of affairs in Gondor just fine; he likes ruling it and he wants to pass rulership on to Boromir. So if Denethor had lived, you better bet your ass he would lean very heavily on the legal precedent set by the Council in order to keep Aragorn off the throne.

It's not that Denethor would doubt Aragorn's descent. Far from it. He would simply hold said descent in contempt, and have Gondorian law on his side to back it up. He'd be wrong, as indeed the Council was wrong (legally speaking) to reject Arvedui, but he'd probably call in all his favors and authority and connections to keep Aragorn off the throne.

[Falenthal]

All this rejection to Aragorn could happen in a modern court.
But do you think this would happen in Middle-Earth?

Boromir acknowledged Aragorn as "his King", even though he had no more evidence of it than when they met in Rivendell. Ioreth, the Mistress of the Minas Tirith House of the Healing declared him King because of the way Aragorn was able to heal all maladies. Only a rightful King of Gondor (not Arnor) could force the Army of the Dead to fulfill their broken oath and fight the forces of Sauron, etc.

It's not about attorneys and laws, Middle-Earth it's about the Heart and "what you feel is right, even if you don't know it". I think Faramir would have backed Aragorn even against his father, the same as he disobeyed Denethor's orders to kill any traspassers in Gondor and, not only that, let Frodo go on his journey knowing that he had the Ring (of which origins Faramir was no ignorant). And in the same way, Gondor's people would have declared Aragorn King. Denethor, I agree, would probably have objected. And he would have surely wandered away or something in the line, not wanting to live in a Realm with an "unrightful king", more or less in the same way as Saruman did when offered peace in Orthanc.