forums.cubicle7.co.uk
archive

I was wondering how much contact there may have been between the two in the latter years of the TA. Would a herald from either be sent forth to announce the births or deaths of their leaders?

Probably next to none, really.

The Stewards are probably aware that a remnant of their northern kin survive. And earlier Stewards would well-remember the great army that Gondor sent to destroy Angmar after the fall of Arnor, and would know that not all of Arnor's people perished when it fell. They almost certainly, however, are not aware that any of the Royal House lived and preserve the descent of Isildur.

But by Turgon's time (Turgon, father of Ecthelion, father of Denethor, is Steward at the time TOR is set) it's been over a thousand years since Arnor fell, and if they give any thought to lands north of Rohan at all, it is probably only rarely. Seventy years later, at the Council of Elrond, Boromir, who as the son of the Steward would be as well-informed as any, seems surprised to learn that the Dunedain still protect the north, and that they have a Chief, and he's descended from Isildur. Faramir is equally skeptical when Frodo proclaims Aragorn to him in Ithilien a few months later. So the Stewards probably don't know much, and they certainly aren't exchanging messages.

Paradoxically, the Chieftains are likely much better informed than the Stewards. All of the Chieftains are fostered at Rivendell in their youth (although it was only Aragorn who actually had his identity concealed from him) and Elrond is nothing if not well-informed. So they probably know about which Steward is in power at any given time and some of what they're doing... but it won't be hugely relevant to them, because Gondor is a long, long way away and they have their own issues.

Heh I'd say Aragorn knew about Ecthelion - he went and fought for him for a bit

I don't have the books with me at this point to check out Many Meetings or The Council of Elrond. But, I do seem to recall that in the film ( which I am aware the game is thankfully not based on) Boromir the says in shock:

"This Ranger is Aragorn?"

So, at least in the film it would seem that Boromir was aware.

I'll check Many Meetings and The Council of Elrond to see what Boromir knew.

Murcushio you seem to have the core of if. Just skimmed The Council of Elrond and Boromir didn't seem to know much at all concerning his northern kin.

The northern line was not wholly forgotten in Gondor, but the Stewards preferred not to think of them and their potential claim to the crown of Gondor which would question their own rule:

J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:Yet many in Gondor still believed that a king would indeed return in some time to come; and some remembered the ancient line of the North, which it was rumoured still lived on in the shadows. But against such thoughts the Ruling Stewards hardened their hearts.
— LotR.Appendix B (The Stewards)

Stewards interested in lore (as Denethor) would be aware of these things, but for the aforementioned reason would not discuss it. Those of lesser lore (like Boromir, a classic warrior type) were probably neither much interested in these things nor were taught in it. Denethor is unlikely to have taught his sons of the Northern Line (such as he knew), preferring to draw a veil of silence over the topic.

Cheers
Tolwen

Tolwen, as always thanks for your thoughts.

Denethor at last was aware of the Northern Line. To which extent we do not know for certain, but by the time of the War of the Ring, he had much knowledge as he he says to gandalf in their argument:

J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:I have read thy mind and its policies. Do I not know that you commanded this halfling here to keep silence? That you brought him hither to be a spy within my very chamber? And yet in our speech together I have learned the names and purpose of all thy companions. So! With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me.
— LotR.The Pyre of Denethor

Probably he had learned much (especially concerning Aragorn) through the palantír, which no Steward had dared to use. Still it shows the aforementioned Steward's stance towards the Northern Line (even if in a really pointed way): To ignore them and stay opposed to their potential claim.

Cheers
Tolwen

Southron Loremaster wrote:Tolwen, as always thanks for your thoughts.

You're welcome

Interestingly, the movie sums it very well up by putting some non-book words in Boromirs mouth: "Gondor has no king, Gondor needs no king." It is the essence of the Stewards' position towards the Northern Line.

Cheers
Tolwen

To be fair, Boromir wasn't really a loremaster. It's stated in multiple places and in multiple ways that Boromir was basically just a warrior, a Captain of Men, and not much else. Faramir was the learned one.

But yes, I do think I have the right of it. There are a few scattered passages, in Unfinished Tales and elsewhere, that state that in Gondor the survival of the northern line is a distant rumor fading into legend.

It's also worth noting that any random Chieftain of the Dunedain couldn't have just rolled up and claimed the Kingship. The movies especially are egregious in this regard, implying that Aragorn just has to show up and that'll be that. Gondor explicitly rejected the claims of the Heirs of Isildur back after Ondoher died. If Denethor had somehow lived through the war, you can be damn sure he would have rejected Aragorn's claim and refused to surrender his office. Aragorn got to be King because he showed up and saved Gondor's bacon in it's hour of greatest need, and Faramir and Imrahil accepted his claim.