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Re: Problems with: - Those who - Tarry no Longer
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:18 pm
by Rich H
This old thread about this scenario may also be of use to you all:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1439&p=12802#p12802
And Gareth, the author of the scenario, makes the following post within it:
Mytholder wrote:In retrospect, the huge issue with the adventure isn't the unwinnable fight - it's having two of them in close succession. I could have got away with having either the "you can't beat the orcs fight, but the eagles rescue you" encounter OR the "town is besieged, you're captured" one, but both is bad design. I fell into the trap of having a scene in my head that I wanted to evoke ("the eagles! the eagles!"), and didn't set things up as well as I should.
You do need almost overwhelming numbers of orcs for the story to work - if the PCs could reasonably defeat Irime's pursuers, it makes her and Legolas look fearful and weak, which is absolute poison to the setting. Still, there should have been a few alternate endings for the fight - maybe the PCs defeat the first wave of orcs and manage to break the siege and ride out. That still leads up to the High Pass and the rest of the adventure.
The second unwinnable fight - the battle in the dream version of the town - is unwinnable because the PCs are going to end up in prison. There, it's a dream, an evil spell cast by the Gibbet King, and being compelled and railroaded is part of the horror. I've no problem with that battle being unfair and unwinnable, because it's not a 'real' encounter. If you really, really wanted to give the players maximum freedom, you could have an ending where they win the fight and escape the town - then they wake up for a moment, see Irime battling the spirit, and then find themselves in chains being marched south by the same raiders they just killed, making it clear that all this is an illusion or nightmare.
There's a vast difference between "unwinnable fights" and "taking away the players' freedom of choice". Unwinnable fights are perfectly "fair". (Ultimately, the whole of the war against the Enemy is unwinnable!) There are vast armies of orcs and other monsters, and sometimes the PCs will run into them and be unable to triumph through force of arms. What's up to the players - and what Those Who Tarry handles badly in places - is what they do when combat will not avail then.
Re: Problems with: - Those who - Tarry no Longer
Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:28 pm
by Bram Corolev
This adventure was one of the most memorable for the players in my Wilderlands campaign. Like others have done, I sprinkled foreshadowing in earlier adventures. They met Irime at an earlier visit with the elves. One of the players had gone to great lengths on his own earlier to gain the favor of the eagles. When the eagles showed up he genuinely thought it was his doing.
Later the hobbit in our group refused to be taken alive during the sacking of the town. He managed to escape but followed the forced march to Dol Goldur. He snuck food and water to the captured party members at opportune moments keeping people alive.
At the conclusion of the adventure all the characters were profoundly changed by the horrors they witnessed. It united them and had they had a new attitude of "we are in this for real".
I know some have problems with the railroadiness of it but how it feels to the players all depends on how you present it. If I ran this campaign I would use this adventure again and make it even better by setting it up more.
Re: Problems with: - Those who - Tarry no Longer
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:53 am
by Lifstan
Yusei wrote:I played the adventure as written... and it went well. I thought it would be too railroady, but my players didn't mind.
I'm happy to read that. I read the scenario and I felt it would be indeed railroady. But on the other hand, I thought it was a very interesting scenario, going deep into Lord of the Ring's lore. So I have been actually looking forward to play it with my group. It's coming next month in my campain. Reading the rest of the discussion thread made me a little bit worry...
My take at this point is: yes, it's railroady, but the idea of the scenario is too good not to play. My group can enjoy it even if it's railroady. They have plenty of free will during the rest of the campain, especially the Felloship phases...
Re: Problems with: - Those who - Tarry no Longer
Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:23 am
by T.S. Luikart
Nobody minds a railroad if the scenery is pretty.
(But multiple tracks don't hurt, either.)
Re: Problems with: - Those who - Tarry no Longer
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:03 pm
by Majestic
I tend to agree about the mistakes in this adventure, but it also does an outstanding job of conveying some of the history of the setting, which is pretty cool.
During the imprisonment section, my PCs were ready to fight to the death, and for a minute it looked like a TPK was inevitable (they had just escaped but were surrounded). I stopped the action and did a cut-scene of them seeing where they actually were (i.e., that it was a dream, and they could see Irime battling the spirit). I then had Irime communicate to them that what was more important than winning any combat was not giving in to the Shadow. The PCs then had a very clear choice, and the enraged Dwarf still looked like he was going to go down fighting. But then he reluctantly surrendered, and the group from that point on redoubled their efforts to fight the Shadow by their attitudes, doing things like singing and encouraging each other through the misery.
I think the scenario can be a good one, but it might not be a bad idea to modify it slightly and correct some of those troublesome areas.
Re: Problems with: - Those who - Tarry no Longer
Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:49 pm
by skywalker
I have found the best way to deal with adventures that have a strong linear storyline is to be upfront about it with the players. If there is good reason for it, such as doing a flashback, then I have found players will be reasonable about it. If there is not a good reason for it, then I would look at changing it.
Re: Problems with: - Those who - Tarry no Longer
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:25 am
by Rocmistro
Holy epic thread necro!
Re: Problems with: - Those who - Tarry no Longer
Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:11 am
by Lifstan
Rocmistro wrote:Holy epic thread necro!
Sorry, I just google the name of the scenario I'm about to play with my group and see what people say about it on this forum. Sometimes, it takes me way back...
Re: Problems with: - Those who - Tarry no Longer
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:47 am
by thorr-kan
T.S. Luikart wrote:Nobody minds a railroad if the scenery is pretty.
(But multiple tracks don't hurt, either.)
Paraphrased from the SJG In Nomine Line Editor: "It's not railroading if the players are trampling each other in their haste to buy tickets."
Some groups *like* being railroaded.
Re: Problems with: - Those who - Tarry no Longer
Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:36 am
by Ferretz
I recently ran this adventure with for the second time, with a different group than the first.
Some of the players in the first group became angry and wanted to quit playing the campaign after that adventure. They didn't like the no-win scenarios and railroading.
So I warned the second (my current) group that this was a bit different, and if everyone around the table cooperates to make the most out of the story and the mood, it would be great. This made them very interested in what was coming, and they really enjoyed the story as it unfolded, despite me really playing up the despair and the hopelessness the characters faced.
So with a little preparation, this adventure can really work well. But if the group is all about "players vs Loremaster" and is focused on "winning" the adventure (like my first group), it would be difficult.
As a LM I was prepared for the worst in this adventure, but what I got was one of the best sessions we've had so far in the campaign.
E.