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Ok, latest scheme:

1) "Dungeon" maps look like network diagrams: that is, important plot "nodes" connected by "vectors". The vectors represent regions of the dungeon with lots of rooms and tunnels and places to get lost.
2) To get between plot points, parties must travel along/through these vectors. Each one is defined by the number of successes required to traverse, and the TN for each attempt.
3) These successes represent various "Trials" and require a variety of different skills.

For each Trial, the LM rolls a Feat die:
Eye: "Going in Circles" (party finds themselves in an area already traversed; no success possible)
1-4: Requires Explore test.
5: "Riddles in the Dark" (requires Lore or Riddle test)
6: "Do Not Disturb" (possible adversary encounter; requires Awareness and Stealth to pass, going around increases # of success required by 1.)
7: "Mind the Gap" (physical obstacle in the path that requires Athletics to pass; finding another route increases # of successes required by 1.)
8: (Working on this one)
9: Valour test
10: Wisdom test
Gandalf: Automatic success. Party finds a resource they need, such as food, water, or a relatively safe place to rest.

For results 1-10 (that require a skill test) failing with an Eye results in something bad, like an adversary encounter.

When the target number of successes is reached, the party reaches their destination within the dungeon.

Example:
Party needs to get from Entrance to Throne room, which (for the map in question) requires 4 successes against a TN of 18.
Trial 1: LM rolls a 4, party's Scout rolls Explore and gets a Great Success with a 21. That counts as 2 successes (because of the Tengwar) so they have 2 left to go.
Trial 2: LM rolls a 6, and determines that the path goes through the lair of some spiders. The party debates and decides that with the Barding's low Stealth they better not risk it, so they look for another route. That increases the total number of successes required by 1, so they now have 3 more to go.
Trial 3: LM rolls a 5 ("Riddles in the Dark") and describes a room where a number of similar passages intersect, and in between are crumbling bas-relief statues of lordly figures. One player rolls Lore and one rolls Riddle (the others abstain for fear of rolling an Eye and increasing their Hunt score) and the Lore roll is 19. The player explains that the statues represent the Valar, and Mandos would have been placed furthest west (Canon Guards chill...I'm improvising as I type), so they want to take the door opposite. 2 successes left to go.
Trial 4: LM rolls a 2, another Explore check. This time the Scout fails with an Eye, and the LM has them stumble into a fight. Still 2 successes left.
Trial 5: Gandalf! LM rules they have found a hidden chamber where it will be safe to rest, allowing some Endurance recovery from last fight. 1 success left.
Trial 6: "Mind the Gap": path goes along a narrow catwalk, crumbling in places, above a raging torrent. Requires Athletics roll to cross. Party decides to risk it and only loses one member, who really wanted to play a Ranger anyway. Zero successes left! Party arrives in Throne Room area.

Thoughts?

I like the idea of including Wisdom and Valour tests in the table, but it's not clear to me how failing those tests would cause the journey to take longer.

I also like that this approach requires some kind of map of the dungeon, instead of it being freeform, but without having to draw out every twist and turn.

I'm all for using the network diagram form of map and linking the areas with a label having the skill(s) needed and any TN's that aren't normal (14).

I'll be writing up a scenario to use in the Autumn round of conventions and will most likely set that in Moria or to avoid a cliche perhaps one that involves losing the path in Mirkwood and wandering in the forest or perhaps the old Elven city of Caras Amarth with a side trip to the Avari tombs which might have been corrupted by evil spirits issuing forth from Dol Guldur.

Hermes Serpent wrote:I'm all for using the network diagram form of map and linking the areas with a label having the skill(s) needed and any TN's that aren't normal (14).

I'll be writing up a scenario to use in the Autumn round of conventions and will most likely set that in Moria or to avoid a cliche perhaps one that involves losing the path in Mirkwood and wandering in the forest or perhaps the old Elven city of Caras Amarth with a side trip to the Avari tombs which might have been corrupted by evil spirits issuing forth from Dol Guldur.

I'm hoping my rules, when they are complete, will be applicable to any "dungeon", whether Orcish tunnel or Elven realm, and will make it easy for the LM to create the necessary specifics.

For #8 in the rules above, perhaps something like "Fork in the Road"? The company reaches some sort of decision point. A test of a relevant skill against the path's TN* (such as Craft, Hunting, Awareness, Search, Explore) means they've chosen wisely. A poor choice adds another day to the travels.

This, of course, is meant to replicate Gandalf's stop in Moria ("I have no memory of this place!") and his final selection of the way to go forward.

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* I envison that these vectors have TNs based on their difficulty, akin to the variable TNs for Journeys in more hazardous locations. All tests along a vector use that TN.

zedturtle wrote:For #8 in the rules above, perhaps something like "Fork in the Road"? The company reaches some sort of decision point. A test of a relevant skill against the path's TN* (such as Craft, Hunting, Awareness, Search, Explore) means they've chosen wisely. A poor choice adds another day to the travels.

This, of course, is meant to replicate Gandalf's stop in Moria ("I have no memory of this place!") and his final selection of the way to go forward.

---

* I envison that these vectors have TNs based on their difficulty, akin to the variable TNs for Journeys in more hazardous locations. All tests along a vector use that TN.

Well, that's approximately what results 1-4 and 5 are meant to represent. I thought about explicitly putting more skills in the table, but didn't want to make it too much like regular journeys.

"Craft" is an interesting one...I hadn't thought of that before. But it would be knowledge of tunneling/mining/construction, huh?

Maybe the 8 could require craft as in: the tunnel needs to be shored up or it might collapse on the party, or a rope system improvised to get across a crumbled part of the path, or a way made through a rock/debris fall (and too much noise attracts the wrong sort of attention), or all the torches go out and someone good at fires needs to rekindle them ASAP.

Àh, I suspected as much. I like Rue's idea, it could represent the shoring up of an underground passage or the clearing/rebuilding of an aboveground one.

zedturtle wrote: I like Rue's idea, it could represent the shoring up of an underground passage or the clearing/rebuilding of an aboveground one.

Exactly. Or even a situation where if a PC had the right skill they could get the party through safely, but if they missed the roll the tunnel collapses further, separating the party/squashing someone/etc. (This scenario made me think of the scene in Arthur Ransome's "Pigeon Post" when the younger explorers go through Ling Scar (against the direct orders of their elder siblings), because a grown-up did, not knowing Squashy Hat is a miner--the tunnel collapses behind them and they have to make it all the way through the mountain and meanwhile the others think they've been crushed).

Oooh...I like that. "No Going Back" is a theme I wanted to develop, so that idea fits in nicely.

Ok, "Craft" is in. I'm already starting to think of other variations as well. (E.g., locked doors & broken mechanisms.)

Elf, some questions:

1. Does the flowchart consist of only 2 locations? (ie, the "Start" and the "Destination") I imagine it to have more "waypoints" that have to be reached along the way.

2. Do the players see the network diagram or is it hidden from them? Do they get any choice in how to navigate the dungeon or is it hidden from them? For example, a dungeon could have a "Start" and a "Destination" with 3 possible different "waypoint" sections to go through to get there. Waypoint 1 might require, for example, 6 tests, but all at TN: 14. Waypoint 2 might require only 3 tests, but at TN: 18. Waypoint 3 might be your standard style hack-n-slash fight room. The players would have the choice with one to do...

3. Some skills and how they can be used:
-Awe: facing down or intimidating some creature or sentinel-like thing, such as a Stone Watchter/Warden type of magic.
-Athletics: climbing walls or ropes, swimming underground dins, holding breath, balancing along catwalks or other things, strength tests (bend bars/lift gates), hauling something heavy up from a pulley system.
-Awareness: to find hidden doors or passages, to spot traps or pits, to find directional markers from prior spelunkers
-Explore: per the normal travel rules
-Song: to figure out some melody or words of some song which unlocks a magical door or trap (One-Eyed Willy/Goonies Organ Scene)
-Craft: to repair a door or mechanical contraption, pick locks, disarm a trap

Inspire: nothing comes to mind, except for a creature-encounter, like Artax fight the sadness kind of thing (Never Ending Story)
Travel: per the normal travel rules
Insight: creature-encounter kind of thing, social encounter in the middle of a dungeon
Healing: finding the cause of death for some poor bastard, and revealing clues about what killed him based on that. Finding the antidote for a poison that you delivered in a previous room.
Courtesy: social encounter thing...
Battle: to beat some creature at a game, such as chess or something similar.
Persuade: social encounter thing; Odysseus in the Cyclops lair, convince him to make wine kind of thing.
Stealth: umm..yeah.
Search: another duh skill. Traps, secret doors, hidden passages, hidden [fill in the blank]
Hunting: per the normal travel rules
Riddle: figuring out a labyrinth or puzzle, or trap. Also used in social encounter, kind of thing. Stygian Witches from Clash of the Titans.
Lore: History to figure out architecture, or the presence of art or statues

Wisdom: To avoid the madness of a maze or labyrinth encounter
Valor: To stave off the peristant effects of a supernatural fear coursing through the dungeon, which escalates the longer the party is in the dungeon. For example, every failed "trail" could up the "Fear level" by one...