"Delving" (a.k.a. Underground Travel)

[Hermes Serpent]

This thread is getting very interesting. I think it calls for some playtesting.

[Glorelendil]

I'm currently revising the Google Doc and will unlock it when it's ready. I like this version.

[Glorelendil]

Ok, reopened for business with Version 2! (Version 1 is still there if you scroll down.)

Rules for Underground Travel

Again, this is just a draft, and is incomplete. Looking for any and all feedback, especially:
1) Name/title suggestions...most of the ones given are just placeholders, and some of them are particularly bad
2) Still need two more Trials
3) More quotes from the text.

P.S. Another valuable form of input would simply be "user stories". I.e., narrate an event or plot device that you would like the rules to support, and I'll see how it can be worked in. Bear in mind the difference between unique events that belong to Plot Locations ("I want my players to fight a balrog on a narrow bridge") and general ones that could happen in any underground realm ("they can't go back the way they came and need to find another exit").

[Rocmistro]

Elf:

I like what you got so far. I would consider adding in the following as "threat" levels:

-Lighting (Or Darkness)
-Fear Level (I think I'd call this the "Doom" level)
-Detection Level

Also, what do you think about adding in "Lost" as a network icon on the actual map itself, with every chamber having a one-way connection to being lost, and lost having a several step process moving out of it. It would looks something like this:

[All other possible rooms] > [Lost] > [Disoriented] > [Back on Track] > {regular room of player's choosing, from which they can proceed as normal}

The big things that the characters lose should be:

-Endurance
-Fatigue (gain)
-Hope Loss
-Shadow (gain)
-Lost time (especially if the mission is a time sensitive one)
-Rations/Water
-Light sources

[Glorelendil]

I agree thematically with all of your suggestions. I'm trying to minimize the rules, and the things that require tracking, so to the extent that mechanics can serve double/triple duty I think it's a good thing.

One of my design goals is to incorporate as many good narrative elements as possible in as few actual rules and mechanics (and dice rolls) as possible. I'm not there yet, but I'm liking Version 2 more than Version 1.

Elf:
-Lighting (Or Darkness)

Yes, "Darkness" is an important theme for dungeon crawling. I keep thinking about how to incorporate it, but I don't want to make players track number of torches or pints of oil.

-Fear Level (I think I'd call this the "Doom" level)

I think Corruption checks ("despair") covers this.

-Detection Level

To some extent this is covered by the forthcoming Eye of Sauron mechanics. But I believe you mean "discovery by local denizens." I think I'll leave that as belonging to dungeon-specific Plot Locations.

Although...I've also been thinking that maybe one more table is needed, sort of like a Hazards table, that is rolled whenever the Trial check results in an Eye of Sauron.

Also, what do you think about adding in "Lost" as a network icon on the actual map itself, with every chamber having a one-way connection to being lost, and lost having a several step process moving out of it. It would looks something like this:

[All other possible rooms] > [Lost] > [Disoriented] > [Back on Track] > {regular room of player's choosing, from which they can proceed as normal}

Mmmm...I'm not sold on that yet (but still listening if you want to explain.) Although the maps are abstract, they do represent physical layouts, not just game state, and I'm not sure I like blending the two.

Mechanically I think the rules for trials should be able to accomplish what you're describing, with or without it being represented on the map. The current version of the rules, however, may not suffice.

Maybe rather than vectors between locations the maps need to have "clouds". So that, for example, if you have three plot locations, all of which connect, instead of having three vectors, each plot location connects to a single cloud with a TN and # of trials. If you get lost in that cloud, you could emerge in any of the three plot locations.

Hmm...I may like that better. I'll play with it and update.

The big things that the characters lose should be:

-Endurance
-Fatigue (gain)
-Hope Loss
-Shadow (gain)
-Lost time (especially if the mission is a time sensitive one)
-Rations/Water
-Light sources

I mentioned light sources earlier, and I put rations/water in the same bucket (no play on words intended). I'd like for those to be considerations, without having to count hours or track rations. Originally I was thinking that each Trial would take X hours (4? 8?) but that felt like a lot of bookkeeping and not in the spirit of TOR. I'm totally open to suggestions of alternate ways to incorporate it.

I ended up dropping Time because the things that cost extra Trials (like failing Explore rolls, or using the Going Around rules) come at a price, and I figured that was kind of a penalty for taking more time.

But I agree that food, water, and light should be a consideration. Not because it's fun to bookkeep, but because running out of them makes for fun/scary plots.

I'm starting to think that Trial failures, especially on Eyes, should be rolled on a table of Mishaps. That table could have Fear checks, Corruption checks, food & water crises, running out of torches, discovery, and other bad things.

Thanks for feedback! Keep it coming!

[Glorelendil]

Hmmm...or maybe rather than track time itself, light sources can be measured by Trials. E.g., one torch per trial (per), or 2 trials per flask of oil. Failing some trials could cost light resources.

Then I think it's starting to sound too much like D&D.

EDIT: Scratch that. I really don't want players or LM tracking hours and counting torches. (Or food and water.) But if they're not being tracked, I'm struggling with a way to factor them into the hazards. If running out of supplies becomes part of hazard tables it doesn't make much sense if that's the first hazard rolled.

LM: "And....an 8. Looks like you're out of torches."
Player: "But we just got here! That was our first Trial!"

I'm open to suggestions for how to handle this.

[Glorelendil]

Updated document. Lots of small edits, but major change was adding a "Mishap" table for failed Explore rolls. Not sure if it should be any failure or only failure with an Eye.

My thinking was that there are a bunch of consequences that I want to include but without them being very common. Even though Explore is the most common Trial, each of those mishaps still only has about a 1/30 chance of showing up as the consequence of failing a random trial (5/12 * 1/12).

If Mishaps only occur on an Eye those odds become much lower. Maybe too low.

[Hermes Serpent]

Yes, "Darkness" is an important theme for dungeon crawling. I keep thinking about how to incorporate it, but I don't want to make players track number of torches or pints of oil.

I use poker chips on the table to represent the Fellowship Pool so a pool of 'torches' might work well in a FTF game. Single and five torch tokens to allow for say ten torches per character and having a Eye result in a dropped or expended torch might work to build suspense. I used the mechanism from Tales for my travelling in Moria notes.

[Glorelendil]

Rivendell is full...full...of plot hooks to underground adventure opportunities.

Just sayin'.

[Rocmistro]

EC:

You might just lump in Food, Water, and Light all as one resource called "provisions" and allow each player to bring an amount with them equal to whatever extra Travel Encumbrance they are willing to carry. Each failure (or prescribed failures, per your chart) would cost the players 1 (or more) points of such provisioning. If they run out, bad things start to happen (Miserable, Weary, "Lostness" goes up, TN's increase, etc. etc.)