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I rather thought the Hunter was the one most likely to have the skills in spotting signs of passage, footprints in the dust things like that and certainly the Guide as Quartermaster fits the fluff /description almost exactly.

I think creating a different set of descriptors for a company journeying underground and using different skills is a good concept but how often is a company gong to be travelling undergound and thus needing those skills which might be at odds with skill needed for travelling overground. There are eighteen skills of which four are used for above ground travel and likely to be boosted regardless. There are five skills used in Encounters (Awe, Inspire, Persuade,Insight and Courtesy) making half the total used for two of the three areas of interaction with the game world, Encounters, Travel and Combat (which has it's own subsystem).

Putting together a subterranean travel sub-system using some of the other nine skills (Athletics, Stealth, Search, Healing, Song, Riddle, Craft, Battle and Lore) would possibly dilute the AP system by spreading the improvement points too thinly.

I'm curious what others think about this. Raising the profile of some lesser-used skills was actually one of my motives.

EDIT

Ugh. The aboveground Journey model keeps breaking down for what I'm trying to accomplish. When I compile the list of fun hazards and challenges for underground travel, the skills needed run the gamut. Trying to artificially restrict it to four skills for the four roles is way too limiting. Maybe I'm on the wrong track trying to make it parallel aboveground Journeys: my initial instinct that Encounters are the better model (count up successes vs. failures, use whatever skills seem appropriate, no roles unless the party chooses a leader').

Help! I need a few more ideas for "Hazards", not in the Journey sense tied to specific roles, but just "tricky things the heroes encounter while adventuring underground."

For context, there are three skills that get used for pathfinding: Explore, Hunting, and Riddle/Lore. Then there are three general categories of obstacles to be overcome: dangerous terrain that is passed using Athletics, blocked passages that get passed using Craft, and dangerous adversaries that can be avoided with stealth.

"Hazards" are things that don't fit into those categories and tend to be more specific. Examples are windy tunnels that put out torches, having the path behind you cut off, finding questionable mushrooms, crossing a terrifying bridge that doesn't actually require any athletics, etc.

Looking for any and all suggestions! Both very specific and general.

(For the record, the hardest part of this exercise has been fitting all the individual ideas into general categories while maintaining appropriate relative frequency, all within a simple system that minimizes dice rolls. That is, how to make Explore checks very common, and getting separated from the party very, very rare, without rolling percentile dice against multi-page tables.)

These might not be new; I have read your full document, but I can't remember all the details:

What about a section of cavern or mine where the players have to simply climb (athletics), or use rope (craft to set up, athletics to use) to go down?

What about a room or a floor, that could cave in/crumble when walked upon (awareness to notice / stealth to walk carefully enough to avoid falling through or causing a cave in)?

If the underground will take many days, then if you have an underground river you can add a potentially positive outcome like catching fish for food (hunting); or have a hazard if the PCs have to swim the freezing water (or create a bridge), and of course nameless things in the depths if things go really bad.

Cursed Treasure, whereby the doors to a room shut and lock, if PCs remove treasure from the chest (and open again if it is returned).

Poisonous gas leaks into a natural chamber/passageway (awareness perhaps, to notice and avoid the area?).

Dwarven traps, set many ages ago to protect particularly important rooms; or crude Orc or Men traps to catch prey or trespassers.

Hopefully there are some somewhat useful seeds of ideas here...

UPDATE: I started over...again. But this one is really good. (Don't bother with the links in this thread; it's a new document that I will link when it's ready.)

Major points:
- Still using the "required number of successful trials per leg" model
- For each trial a feat die is rolled (or LM chooses) to determine the nature of that trial, with the options divided into two general categories:
- "Pathfinding" can be either Explore, Hunting, or Riddle/Lore. The party nominates one member who makes the roll. On a failure everybody rolls Fatigue, on Failure with an Eye the pathfinder faces a Hazard.
- On Riddle/Lore tests, Lore can only be used if the player would have knowledge about the place, such as having consulted deeply with somebody who knows it well, or having a detailed map in hand. Otherwise Riddle must be used.
- Pathfinding Hazards and Fatigue/Travel Hazards are different lists. One is the pathfinder leading the party into trouble, the other is an individual finding trouble on his own.
- "Obstacles" are challenges that require various skills to overcome, but the party has the option of looking for another route (that comes with its own risks and costs).
- I've dispensed with worrying about Rations. I figure everybody already has a couple of days rations in their packs, and very few dungeons will take longer than that. I'll add some advice for LMs on how to deal with those exceptions.
- Torch Checks will occur on certain events (one of my to-do items is figuring out when this occurs); a failed roll means you subtract one torch. Oil Lamps/Lanterns have a lower TN. Magical light sources generally unaffected. Fire-building trait lets you include a Success die.

Overall it's much simpler than previously, requires fewer dice rolls, and doesn't invent new dice mechanics. And I think it offers a good distribution between "common" tests (like Explore rolls) and uncommon tests (like wandering through Blighted areas, or experiencing Cave-ins.)

One fun thing I've added that I'm particularly excited about: on an individual Hazard check a Gandalf result means you have found a minor object of potential value, such as a coin, a key, a piece of jewelry, etc. If you are also currently Miserable, Lost, Separated, Cut-Off, or in Darkness (the last four conditions are described in the document) you may treat the find as a minor hoard and roll the Feat die. If it comes up G or E, you may roll Success dice as per the rules for Magical Items in Rivendell, but you may only roll as many Success dice as the number of those conditions (Miserable, Cut Off, Lost, Separated, Darkness) that you're suffering from. (So when Bilbo put his hand on the ring he was Lost, Separated, in Darkness, and Miserable so he got to roll 4 dice.) Maybe I'll add Wounded to the list.

The odds of this happening are pretty slim: The pathfinder has to fail a skill test, then you have to fail with an eye on your Travel roll, then you have to roll a Gandalf, you have to be Lost, Miserable, etc., then roll another Gandalf/Eye, and finally roll a Tengwar on probably just one or two Success dice.

I really like that last addition--even if it almost never happens, just the idea that it might is pretty fun and adds flavor in a ME way. You've done a very nice job on this and I can't wait to read over the new doc once it's ready.

This one looks like it has great potential.

This new system seems awesome elf. The gandalf effect is brilliant - it's one of those little things that is great fun for the players.

The skill selection is great too, using lore and riddle is a great idea. It gives a significant different feel to indoor journeys.

But the best of all is that it's streamlined, straight to the point and on the same level as RAW. As a general rule, I believe mechanics should be as simple as possible, while still doing what it's supposed to.

Good job on this

How's this progressing, any updates? It was looking really promising...

Latest version is much transformed and improved. Stay tuned!