What is a troll?

[zedturtle]

So for reasons* I'm thinking about having my players face off with a troll. But not any old troll, an undead troll animated by a foul power. But despite the cool factor (at least in my head) it runs into a potential problem. (Some) trolls turn to stone in sunlight, so maybe they're some sort of corrupted spirit. But we are also given the possibility that they might be corruptions or mockeries of ents. So the question begs, do trolls have bones? Flesh? Etc?

Or is an undead troll an impossibility or does it look different?

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* the reasons initials are GK.

[Beran]

I'm not sure, but aren't Trolls the results of the Dark Powers trying to create Ents? Like the Orc is a corrupted form of the Elves?

[zedturtle]

I'm not sure, but aren't Trolls the results of the Dark Powers trying to create Ents? Like the Orc is a corrupted form of the Elves?

Tolkien changed his mind a few times on Orcs (and thus, presumably, on Trolls)... The main challenge is reconciling that no one other than Eru can give something the Flame Imperishable (the soul or "spark" of life). We're told that when Aulë made the dwarves they did move and have the semblance of life... but only because Aulë was focused on them. Eru had to be the one to make them truly alive.

So, maybe Melkor has dispersed himself enough into Arda that Orcs and Trolls are just reflections of his mind. Or, we are told at other times, they are corruptions of the original Children (Elves for Orcs). Ents aren't Children, though, or at least we don't get a scene where Eru gives them life like he does for the other children. Yavanna just tells Manwë that they were in the song, and thus they are there (maybe lesser spirits given corporeal form as protectors of the trees?).

The appeal of making Orcs (and Trolls) spontaneous creations of Morgoth's corruption of Arda is that they're completely unredeemable. But if they are corrupted Elves/Ents then they should be able to be saved through pity and compassion. But we're also told that while showing pity to orcs is a Good Thing, it is ultimately futile... none of the Children can undo the terrible damage that Morgoth worked on the orcs and they're not able to be saved, at least in this life.

[Glorelendil]

I'm not sure, but aren't Trolls the results of the Dark Powers trying to create Ents? Like the Orc is a corrupted form of the Elves?

Orcs were supposedly bred from elves, long before any of the elves ever went West. But note the wording (emphasis added):

“Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.”

There's leeway in that language for an alternate story, although you'll risk incurring the wrath of Tolwen.

[Falenthal]

although you'll risk incurring the wrath of Tolwen.

I wouldn't sleep at night if I were you...

[Stormcrow]

Trolls are not corruptions, they are deceptions. They are stone, animated by magic to seem alive. When the light of day reveals them for what they are, the spell of deception is broken and they are revealed to be only stone.

The spell is so powerful that while it works trolls are, for all intents and purposes, alive.

[Glorelendil]

Trolls are not corruptions, they are deceptions. They are stone, animated by magic to seem alive. When the light of day reveals them for what they are, the spell of deception is broken and they are revealed to be only stone.

The spell is so powerful that while it works trolls are, for all intents and purposes, alive.

That's a pretty good interpretation. I'd use that one. (So no bones, no undead, unfortunately...)

That leaves room for more powerful trolls that can withstand sunlight: it's just a matter of more potent spells.

[Falenthal]

And what of the Olog-hai?

They were improvements made by Sauron (not Morgoth) from the Trolls. And they could fight and withstand the sunlight. Does it tell us something about trolls?

I just work with the simple idea that orcs are corruptions of elves and trolls corruptions of ents. By corruptions I don't mean "created new at the image of", but that he captured the "raw material" (living elves and ents, given live by Eru) and tortured, corrupted, etc them until they becamen something different.

[Otaku-sempai]

I would say to treat Trolls as flesh-and-blood creatures unless they have been turned (returned?) to stone. If a Troll is killed and has not been exposed to sunlight, it could probably be reanimated as undead. Olog-hai (Great Trolls) are immune to sunlight, but more closely resemble huge Orcs rather than other Trolls; perhaps they were interbred with Orcs.

[zedturtle]

Shambling Troll
Attribute Level: 6
Endurance: 60
Hate: 6
Parry: 3
Armour: None (see below)

Skills

• Personality: 0
• Survival: 2
• Movement: 1
• Custom: 0
• Perception: 1
• Vocation: 0

Weapon Skills

• Crush: 3

Special Abilities

• Fell Spirit
• Hideous Toughness
• Thing of Terror

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Fell Spirit
Cold be hand and heart and bone

This creature is not a living being, but the tortured remains of something that was once alive. The evil spirit animating the remains is impervious to piercing wounds, the only hope for a hero facing such an abomination is to batter the body that houses the spirit so badly that the spirit must flee.

Wounds do not affect this creature, it is destroyed when it reaches 0 Endurance.

Here's the stats I came up with, in case anyone was interested.