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If an Elf character is wearing a lesser ring of power, do they calculate their favored attribute bonus the way it was originally, or as 1 higher (as long as they are wearing the lesser ring).

Also, does the permanent shadow point (PSP) go away if they take the ring off, lose it, get rid of it?

In addition, if a hero has a lesser ring (and thus the PSP that goes with it) does he also have to take the corresponding flaw? I would think not as normally you must suffer a bout of madness to get the PSP and this awarding of a PSP seems to bypass that. Thus, it would also seem that a hero with a lesser ring of power can actually "achieve" 5 PSP before they must retire.

Am I understanding all that right?

Rocmistro wrote:If an Elf character is wearing a lesser ring of power, do they calculate their favored attribute bonus the way it was originally, or as 1 higher (as long as they are wearing the lesser ring).

I'd go with 1 higher, personally. On the logic that if your basic rating increases then so should/would your favoured.

Rocmistro wrote:Also, does the permanent shadow point (PSP) go away if they take the ring off, lose it, get rid of it?

It's called Permanent Shadow for a reason, would be my guess!

Rocmistro wrote:In addition, if a hero has a lesser ring (and thus the PSP that goes with it) does he also have to take the corresponding flaw? I would think not as normally you must suffer a bout of madness to get the PSP and this awarding of a PSP seems to bypass that. Thus, it would also seem that a hero with a lesser ring of power can actually "achieve" 5 PSP before they must retire.

I thought the same. I think there needs to be some clarification that if Permanent Shadow is gained outside of a Bout of Madness then does that also get the character a corresponding Shadow Flaw Trait.

Rocmistro wrote:If an Elf character is wearing a lesser ring of power, do they calculate their favored attribute bonus the way it was originally, or as 1 higher (as long as they are wearing the lesser ring).

Also, does the permanent shadow point (PSP) go away if they take the ring off, lose it, get rid of it?

In addition, if a hero has a lesser ring (and thus the PSP that goes with it) does he also have to take the corresponding flaw? I would think not as normally you must suffer a bout of madness to get the PSP and this awarding of a PSP seems to bypass that......

Absolutely agree that Attribute is 1 higher - we are talking a Ring of Power here.

Can I suggest that when Mr Baggins (senior) handed his ring on he didn't seem to retain much of those negative qualities that possession left with him? He became more at ease, he grew older in body but more relieved in spirit. So maybe Permanent is only Permanent while owning the Ring? The effects and impact on Bilbo would be greater because he held the Master Ring not a Lesser one.

Note: I accept [entirely] that almost seeing the ring again or being tempted by its immediate prescence when Frodo gets to Rivendell made him briefly nastier than normal. So there may be an effect still: but is it in hiding, or active?
If a character can remove this Lesser ring; and pass it on then perhaps the Permanent Shadow Point can become an ordinary SP and be removed by a suitable action? I sort of like the idea that possession of the ring comes with the flaw: and removal of the ring loses that problem or lets it fade.
As always just a thought.

They gain a permanent point of Shadow but do not reset their temporary Shadow, nor do they gain a flaw or a bout of madness. A bout of madness always results in a permanent point of Shadow, but the opposite isn't necessarily true.

Thanks Andrew.

Dunheved, I see your point, but for game reasons I'd probably just rule it as a PSP.

Dunheved wrote:Can I suggest that when Mr Baggins (senior) handed his ring on he didn't seem to retain much of those negative qualities that possession left with him? He became more at ease, he grew older in body but more relieved in spirit. So maybe Permanent is only Permanent while owning the Ring? The effects and impact on Bilbo would be greater because he held the Master Ring not a Lesser one.

I don't think that's necessarily anything to do with Shadow points; it's more to do with being removed from the effects of the Ring. Giving up the Ring meant he didn't need to make continuous Corruption Tests, the use of Hope when he failed, those Miserable times when his Hope fell below his Shadow score, and a great weight had been lifted from him. Symbolically, it may also have removed some/all of his temporary Shadow when he left it behind. I don't think Bilbo actually had many Permanent Shadow points to be honest - because of the circumstances that he acquired the Ring.

Personally, I'm not sure about the Lesser Ring reward. It only adds 1 point to an Attribute so is only accessed through the expenditure of Hope and this is paid for with XP (ie, increasing Valour) *and* acquiring 1 point of Permanent Shadow. Not sure it's worth it to be honest.

Well the real question is whether changes to that base star affect derived stats such as damage and parry, I had assumed that they did which makes it incredibly powerful. I'm now guessing they probably don't.

bluejay wrote:Well the real question is whether changes to that base star affect derived stats such as damage and parry, I had assumed that they did which makes it incredibly powerful. I'm now guessing they probably don't.

No, I'd say it would... I'd honestly forgotten about those elements.

EDIT: I still don't think that makes up for the Permanent Shadow point though, just to be clear.

I don't think it makes it incredibly powerful.

A lesser ring gives you +1 to (bonus success damage output) OR (endurance & hope) OR (parry), in addition to, of course, the attribute bonus it's associated with when you spend hope.

Given that a normal virtue/reward can you give the first, (fell/dour handed) or better (+2 or in some cases +3 endurance, and +2 hope (plus replenishment) or a bonus to parry (shield) without the Permanent Shadow Point, I think it's balanced pretty well. A permanent shadow point is no joke.

Well I think we're in agreement, it's a well-balanced reward. Personally I think +1 to a base attribute is a powerful addition (I mean they can end up with 9 base Wits ... or 9 Parry before even picking up a shield!)

You're right that a PSP is a tough thing (particularly for the High Elves) however I can think of at least 1 instance in Darkening of Mirkwood where they remove permanent shadow points ... so they're not THAT permanent.