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At this rate we'll have Middlefinger the chief whoremonger and procurer who runs the mint on the side and conspires with everyone who all think he's on their team when the only team he's on is his own.

Thanks GRRM.

Hermes Serpent wrote:At this rate we'll have Middlefinger the chief whoremonger and procurer who runs the mint on the side and conspires with everyone who all think he's on their team when the only team he's on is his own.

Thanks GRRM.

That comparison certainly comes to mind and may even be where the one Player is coming from.

Just what cities or settlements in Wilderland would be considered to be "open" ones where whorehouses (may as well call them what they are), gambling dens and such might be tolerated? Not Dale; any such establishment would have to run under-the-table and would be at high risk of being shut down as soon as it is discovered. Maybe Lake-town, but it would be strongly regulated (IMHO). Viglund's settlement in the Eastmark. Tyrant's Hill. Probably on Trader's Island or in the Toft.

At Stonyford, Woodland Hall, Woodman-town, Mountain Hall or other such places, a brothel would likely need to be set up in a Holdstead outside of the town and some distance removed from it. Almost any place that the Adventurers might want to make into a Sancuary would not tolerate a brothel operating openly within its borders.

Otaku-sempai wrote:Just what cities or settlements in Wilderland would be considered to be "open" ones where whorehouses (may as well call them what they are), gambling dens and such might be tolerated? Not Dale; any such establishment would have to run under-the-table and would be at high risk of being shut down as soon as it is discovered. Maybe Lake-town, but it would be strongly regulated (IMHO).

What makes you think that? Prostitution is the oldest profession, and isn't/wasn't frowned upon in many places of our world, and wherever there are men there's a need. I certainly don't think Dale would try and shut any down as it wouldn't be in their interests to do so - they'd be run like any other business in my opinion; ranging from high class establishments for diplomats and nobility to low class ones for sailors and soldiery along with ones of good and bad repute. Those breaking the law in some way, would be dealt with, but others would be left to their own devices.

Whether you want players to run them or not is open to debate though; personally I wouldn't, because these aren't the kind of stories I would want to tell with TOR, but having brothels and the like 'in the background' is something I'd certainly expect - it's stuff like this, not necessarily described in Tolkien's work, that adds verisimilitude to a gameworld.

Well, Rich, I'm filtering the idea through the lens of Professor Tolkien who seems to have preferred to imagine that certain things either didn't happen in Middle-earth or at least weren't talked about. Granted, the folk of Rhovanion would not have had the same attitudes as God-fearing, Victorian-age Christians--and even those folk included a generous share of philanderers and adulterers.

So, okay, perhaps Dale under Bard would have had brothels (even if such businesses were outlawed, some would have been operating under-the-table). If permitted, they would have to pay taxes and operate under fair business practices. The city might even require the owner to have a permit and follow a number of restrictions.

Esgaroth might be much the same, but I see it as a more open town. Brothels would require no more regulation than taverns and other establishments for adult recreation. They would still be subject to the rule of law, maybe periodic inspections (at least in the case of complaints leveled against the establishment). Taxes (or at least bribes) would be collected.

I must admit, I did not think that I would ever be part of a long discussion of brothels in Middle-earth.

Otaku-sempai wrote:I must admit, I did not think that I would ever be part of a long discussion of brothels in Middle-earth.

And I never thought I'd read one!

I don't recall the Professor describing his characters going to the bathroom. And yet I don't think it would be breaking canon to incorporate a latrine into an adventure.

Brothels where the girls are slaves is actually common in the South (Umbar, Near Harad etc.) and is considered part of the culture - they are called harems.

It really depends as Otaku says on how the girls are treated and if they are able to earn their freedom as to the gain of Shadow Points, and also the purpose behind the brothel (a front for The Shadow being the most corrupting).

In history some 'courtesans' have been able to get rich and powerful ( just like the Arabian cultures).

Robin S.

Check out the film "Dangerous Beauty" about a courtesan in Venice; I forget which century.

I always thought harems were for the benefit of a single individual, who probably didn't pay for services rendered. Does harem have another meaning closer to brothel?

Elfcrusher wrote:I always thought harems were for the benefit of a single individual, who probably didn't pay for services rendered. Does harem have another meaning closer to brothel?

No, you are correct. A harem and a brothel are not the same. The women in a harem all belong to the same individual as his wives and/or courtesans.

I am so sorry for not replying sooner to this thread. I have enjoyed reading everyone's comments. You make some extremely good points. Here is what I decided to do. I let the "evil" or "shadow" leaning players have a fairly free hand on Saturday. The other players actually helped keep them in check which I thought was awesome. Normally I think I wouldn’t have given them such freedom to be bad except I set the story in The Toft which I made have its own internal struggle with good and bad. This gave the heroic players plenty of things to do and the not so heroic players something to do on the side. I did sit them down before the game and explained the shadow rules again and the vision of the game. I also told them that slavery in this world wouldn’t be tolerated by the free people and it would cost them dearly if they pursue it. I think they understand. If they want to put a brothel in The Toft and sell pipeweed to underage northmen then they can do that as long as they understand it is going to give them some shadow points. I think they are cool with that. I also explained that if they tried this in more law abiding lands it would not end well. So to make a long story short I gave them a place (The Toft) to explore the darker nature of their characters with the expressed understanding it won’t fly in the more civilized areas of Middle Earth.