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doctheweasel wrote:How do the numbers look to you all. Is it too hard or too easy to go up and down? It's a hard thing to judge (how many great deeds do you need to do to get some respect around here?)

You still haven't answered the questions I asked about Renown and Standing and if they are two separate things, so it's impossible to really give you advice on the 'numbers'. Your bit about losing Renown states that Standing is also being kept in your system. Is that the case? How do the two interact? What is Renown used for if you're keeping Standing?

Rich H wrote:

doctheweasel wrote:How do the numbers look to you all. Is it too hard or too easy to go up and down? It's a hard thing to judge (how many great deeds do you need to do to get some respect around here?)

You still haven't answered the questions I asked about Renown and Standing and if they are two separate things, so it's impossible to really give you advice on the 'numbers'. Your bit about losing Renown states that Standing is also being kept in your system. Is that the case? How do the two interact? What is Renown used for if you're keeping Standing?

Isn't his Renown just a currency to buy Standing? Maybe the language is a little unclear, but I think his table is showing the cost to raise Standing by spending Renown.

Elfcrusher wrote:

Rich H wrote:

doctheweasel wrote:How do the numbers look to you all. Is it too hard or too easy to go up and down? It's a hard thing to judge (how many great deeds do you need to do to get some respect around here?)

You still haven't answered the questions I asked about Renown and Standing and if they are two separate things, so it's impossible to really give you advice on the 'numbers'. Your bit about losing Renown states that Standing is also being kept in your system. Is that the case? How do the two interact? What is Renown used for if you're keeping Standing?

Isn't his Renown just a currency to buy Standing? Maybe the language is a little unclear, but I think his table is showing the cost to raise Standing by spending Renown.

Not sure mate; as he called that left column 'Renown' and not Standing it looks like two separate stats. I do think doc needs to be clearer in what he's set out so we know for certain. In principal I think it's a great idea, I use something like this in my game, but it needs a few points of clarification.

Rich H wrote:

doctheweasel wrote:How do the numbers look to you all. Is it too hard or too easy to go up and down? It's a hard thing to judge (how many great deeds do you need to do to get some respect around here?)

You still haven't answered the questions I asked about Renown and Standing and if they are two separate things, so it's impossible to really give you advice on the 'numbers'. Your bit about losing Renown states that Standing is also being kept in your system. Is that the case? How do the two interact? What is Renown used for if you're keeping Standing?

I think we are getting confused because you and I are using the same word for different things.

In your system, Renown is a replacement for Standing.

In this one, Standing still operates as written. Renown Points are just the currency to buy up Standing — much like Advancement Points are only used to raise Common Skills. They are not used to track or affect anything else.

It's possible that changing the name may be in order, but it seemed to fit (and I'm not counting your houserules as "prior art")

What I am trying to accomplish with this is to create a uniform system to raise standing outside of just spending Treasure. The best I've seen in attempts to do this are fiat-based — including one of my own suggestions in another thread to use XP as a starting point for handing out "Renown Points" — and I wanted something more reliable.

I hope that answers your questions.

EDIT: I've relabeled the table in the original post to make the relationship between Standing and Renown Points clearer.

A variant of my earlier post: multiply all your Renown rewards by 4 and call it "Treasure that can only be used for Standing" and you've got pretty much the same system. Except for the part about losing Standing if you have 0 Renown. (Honestly I don't understand that part of it....is it like "Publish or Perish" in Academia? You have to keep doing Great Deeds or your Standing slips?)

EDIT: Better yet, keep the Renown name, but still multiply by 4 and let Renown be used in place of Treasure to buy Standing. "I will use 30 Renown and 18 Treasure to buy Standing 4."

Elfcrusher wrote:A variant of my earlier post: multiply all your Renown rewards by 4 and call it "Treasure that can only be used for Standing" and you've got pretty much the same system.

That's exactly it.

Elfcrusher wrote:Except for the part about losing Standing if you have 0 Renown. (Honestly I don't understand that part of it....is it like "Publish or Perish" in Academia? You have to keep doing Great Deeds or your Standing slips?)

It's a replacement for the current Standing Upkeep rules that have you lose the whole Standing Rank unless you pay Treasure equal to current Standing. It would be weird to have almost enough Renown Points to buy the next Standing rank and then lose an whole rank because you didn't send money home. (I should probably change the heading to Standing Upkeep to make that clear.)

In some ways the new system requires more from you (because losing RP equal to Standing is more costly than Treasure equal to Standing), but in other ways more forgiving (you have to be really low on RP to lose that rank) so I figured it balanced out.

So Doc, you (or the players) have to keep track of Advancement Points, Experience Points, Treasure and Renown earned every Adventure Phase, right?

And Renown points can only be used to improve or maintain your Standing, nothing more.

And also, from what I understand, every character has to keep an account of his Standing for every different culture in Wilderland, not only for his own. If that's the case, then, like in Rich's Additional Rules, the Standing for every culture should be used in Encounters for Tolerance instead of Wisdom/Valour, don't you think?

doctheweasel wrote:EDIT: I've relabeled the table in the original post to make the relationship between Standing and Renown Points clearer.

I think that's clarified it Doc, thanks. Now the column says Standing and not Renown it's more obvious that you're talking about one trait rather than two.

I agree with Elfcrusher with regard to increasing the Renown points obtained in the examples given; that way you can just spend them like you would treasure in order to increase Standing. Also, this would easily allow for LMs to tweak the numbers, as it'd be more transparent in comparison to treasure points, so that they could increase the value of Renown awarded if they wanted to make it more important than treasure for the purposes of increasing Standing.

I take it there's also still just one Standing trait, for a PC's own culture, yes?

Falenthal wrote:And also, from what I understand, every character has to keep an account of his Standing for every different culture in Wilderland, not only for his own.

I don't think that's the case Falenthal, it's just one Standing rating (ie, a character's own cultural Standing).

Just thinking out loud here....

A) Why not just hand out more Treasure? It's not like there's much else to do with it in TOR, other than buy Standing. Answer: because flavor-wise it doesn't always work. E.g., if you save some Woodmen orphans it should be worth similar Renown/Standing as saving some Dalish merchants, but the orphans can't really afford to pay you. Also, it's heavy. TOR "gold" is chemically identical to depleted uranium. Make great sling ammo...if the game had slings.

B) If you rescue the Woodmen orphans it seems like it should affect your Standing with Woodmen more than with Dale or Erebor, so....should Renown points be specific to cultures? (Sort of like national currencies, but abstract/virtual/imaginary.) Probably not, but mostly from a complexity standpoint.

C) Renown Points don't have Encumbrance, which is a benefit.

D) Random idea: a modifier for any two pairs of cultures, which determines relative Standing between them. E.g., Woodmen <--> Beornings might be 1, Erebor Dwarves <--> Mirkwood Elves might be 4. A Dwarf's Standing in the Woodland Realm would therefore be Standing - 4. You could buy/earn reduced penalties in each culture, to a minimum of zero. Too complex? Would require keeping a table of modifiers on the character sheet.

E) Thought experiment: what else could be a money sink in TOR? I really don't think it should be gear (weapons, armor, mounts, etc.). That pretty much leaves spending it on pure roleplaying (e.g. standard of living) or status, which has meant Standing and now can also mean Holdings. Holdings increase Standing sort of indirectly: by generating Treasure that can be spent on increasing Standing.

My Conclusions:
- I'd like to see a mechanism for measuring and increasing Standing in other cultures.
- I'd like to see more synergy between Holdings and Standing.
- I fully support virtual Treasure (e.g. Doc's Renown, or Zed's Holding Profits) that can only be spent on Standing