Elf-lights and Nazgul

[beckett]

I am probably over thinking this or under caffeinated but I am wondering what would happen if an Elf used the Elf-lights virtue on a Nazgul. The Nazgul could spend 1 Hate point to ignore the spell effect but then there is still the fire to consider. Since Nazgul possess Fear of Fire, it would then lose 1 Hate because of the torch.

So an Elf could deplete a Nazgul of 2 hates points in the first round by using Elf-lights. Is that correct? Does anyone think Nazgul should be immune to the spell effects of the Wood-elf Magic virtue? Since the Attribute Levels of the three Nazgul in the Darkening of Mirkwood are all below 6 they could drop into an Enchanted Sleep (if not enjoying the Denizen of the Dark ability). Perhaps Nazgul wouldn't be caught undead in broad daylight so that wouldn't come into play.

An additional question just came to me (and again, over thinking or under caffeinated). The wording in the Fear of Fire ability suggests that the creature only loses that 1 Hate Point at the end of the first round of combat and never again for the length of the battle. Is that correct?

The creature loses 1 point of Hate at the end of the first round of combat fought against a direct adversary wielding a torch or other sort of burning item.

[Stormcrow]

So an Elf could deplete a Nazgul of 2 hates points in the first round by using Elf-lights. Is that correct? Does anyone think Nazgul should be immune to the spell effects of the Wood-elf Magic virtue?

They would be immune to the attractive effect of elf-lights, which only work on mortals. Nazgul pretty much stopped being mortal long ago.

I suppose the only effect elf-lights would have on a Nazgul would be when the fire flares.

Since the Attribute Levels of the three Nazgul in the Darkening of Mirkwood are all below 6 they could drop into an Enchanted Sleep (if not enjoying the Denizen of the Dark ability).

Do Nazgul sleep?

An additional question just came to me (and again, over thinking or under caffeinated). The wording in the Fear of Fire ability suggests that the creature only loses that 1 Hate Point at the end of the first round of combat and never again for the length of the battle. Is that correct?

Yes.

[beckett]

They would be immune to the attractive effect of elf-lights, which only work on mortals. Nazgul pretty much stopped being mortal long ago.

Of course! Now I feel foolish.

I missed this part from the book:

You know how to make a torch or a lamp burn with a peculiar flame that attracts all mortals who see it.

Thanks, Stormcrow!

[Hermes Serpent]

The wording of the ability suggests to me that the Fear of Fire operates at any time if it is the first round of combat that fire is used by the hero, not necessarily the starting combat round of the fight. As only one round can be the first round that fire is used against that adversary.....

Note that the end of the round is when the LM calls for changes in stances and various other bookkeeping type actions so deducting Hate for facing a hero wielding a torch or for being attacked with fire should happen in that inter-round period.

I personally wouldn't allow Elf Lights on their own to 'attack' a (speaking) creature (in terms of causing damage) but using Elf Lights to cause a torch (flaming wooden stick) to blaze up and blind (Weary for one round) the enemy would be good and should count as an 'attack' (I.e. has an effect) and cause Fear of Fire to come into play.

So using Elf-lights to attract an enemy who spends one Hate to ignore them would not trigger the proximity required for extinguishing the light in a flare that causes the Weary condition or the Fear of Fire in my opinion.

Now to avoid hero's wielding a lit torch in place of a shield I might caution them against such shenanigans.

You've already had their use against Nazgul dealt with.

[Stormcrow]

Now to avoid hero's wielding a lit torch in place of a shield I might caution them against such shenanigans.

What's wrong with that? It seems a most sensible precaution against adversaries that fear fire. Mind you, I wouldn't allow attacking with the torch at the same time as attacking with a weapon, but I would certainly allow a player-hero to trigger an adversary's fear of fire just by holding a torch with their off-hand.

[aramis]

The 1 hate to counter an ability makes the ability not trigger at all. So If the Nazgûl wants it dark (and why wouldn't they?), the elf gets no elf-light. The Torch stays dark. But since Nazgûl are not hindered by the light....

Really, a Player should be able to get ONE shot off.

[doctheweasel]

Now to avoid hero's wielding a lit torch in place of a shield I might caution them against such shenanigans.

What's wrong with that? It seems a most sensible precaution against adversaries that fear fire. Mind you, I wouldn't allow attacking with the torch at the same time as attacking with a weapon, but I would certainly allow a player-hero to trigger an adversary's fear of fire just by holding a torch with their off-hand.

Indeed. Players must invoke every shenanigan they have available to face the Nazgul and survive. Using standard RPG "rush in and hit them" tactics is suicide.

[Stormcrow]

Well, any adversary that has a Fear of Fire. The description even mentions that the foe must be "wielding" the burning item, so it seems likely that this is EXACTLY what the Fear of Fire is about. If it were talking about wielding the torch/whatever as your only weapon, such weapons would have statistics.

Personally, I would also trigger Fear of Fire if someone used elf-lights to make a torch or lantern near the creature suddenly flare during combat, even if it was not wielded by the creature's foe.

[Dunheved]

I'd play that Elf - lights remove Denizen of the Dark for that round, and considering that the impact of Ringwraiths (in canon) are really enhanced in the dark I'd expect there to be real pressing reasons and sound practice for adventurers to use any viable light source for as long as possible. I'd want to reward (encourage) my team to do this with as many hints and clues as I thought I could get away with when the Nazgul appear.

The best protection was the fire at Weathertop according to Aragorn.
The Werewolf of Mirkwood is seriously upset by a certain lamp, isn't it?
Gollum loathes most light sources
and the stars are 'beloved' by Elves with good reason

so more light = better

[aramis]

I'd play that Elf - lights remove Denizen of the Dark for that round, and considering that the impact of Ringwraiths (in canon) are really enhanced in the dark I'd expect there to be real pressing reasons and sound practice for adventurers to use any viable light source for as long as possible. I'd want to reward (encourage) my team to do this with as many hints and clues as I thought I could get away with when the Nazgul appear.

The best protection was the fire at Weathertop according to Aragorn.
The Werewolf of Mirkwood is seriously upset by a certain lamp, isn't it?
Gollum loathes most light sources
and the stars are 'beloved' by Elves with good reason

so more light = better

The key thing is that Denizen of the dark doubles the attribute level. Which is potentially nasty, given some of the other powers of Nazgûl and undead.
The Deadly Spells of the Nazgûl enslave for AttLv Months.
Dwimmerlaik does damage to the attacker equal to the attribute level.
Weapon hits (of course) do AttLv as damage bonus on Great Success.

Words of Power and Terror causes hope spent on ability activation to be wasted... The triggered ability fails to trigger, but the hope is spent... So, if you go to elf light them, the Nazgûl cancels it for 1 hate. If you have two or more Nazgûl, either one can cancel your Elf-Light.

If your party has 2 or more with Elf-Light, it's not so bad. But even one Ringwraith is a major opponent. Even one is deadly. Can you afford to lose that much hate?

Is the Elf-light worth it? Probably not. The Ringwraith is a badass even without doubling the AttLv. The Ringwraith is a threat as great as a great wyrm, but without a clear weak spot. You're better off by far doing the Awe test and doing two to four hate.