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This monstrous ability states "at night, underground or in a dense forest". What sort of light would negate this? I believe elven "party" lamps do (as featured in one adventure in the Darkening of Mirkwood). What about flaming brands being used as torches? Normal lanterns? A camp fire or a bonfire?

There's a few wonderful videos about "hollywood lighting" and torches. So, practically speaking, I doubt that torches would negate the ability. Bigger fires and magic-type effects might, though.

I would say "no" to your examples of man-made fire (torches, bon fires). Magical light would be another matter, and I'd take it on a case by case basis. The lamp of Belthi, in my opinion, would negate it. But mere magical glowing blades would not.

kla060365 wrote:This monstrous ability states "at night, underground or in a dense forest". What sort of light would negate this? I believe elven "party" lamps do (as featured in one adventure in the Darkening of Mirkwood). What about flaming brands being used as torches? Normal lanterns? A camp fire or a bonfire?

I think about the area reached by the light. I remember that Nazgul's effects are enormously enhanced by the dark. Their chief weapon is Fear, (Fear & Surprise, er, their TWO chief weapons...STOP IT) and this Fear effect is enhanced by darkness.

If you are holding a torch, it really only illuminates the spot where you are standing. It just doesn't light up vast spaces. So holding an ordinary torch isn't going to remove enough of the surrounding Dark to have a significant effect on the atmosphere of the 'lurking unseen and very nearby' that the aura of the Nazgul produce. By the time your light is close enough to distinguish a dark shape from a dark background you are having a bad attack of the Black Breath. So it's not good enough to save you in any significant way.
Other denizens of the dark would use some light like torchs to see with. Goblins use lights (usually a nice red colour aren't they?) in their tunnels and strongholds. Read the canon, these places are usually lit up a bit. So I wouldn't lose the effect here, or most places underground.

I guess my guideline would be - is there enough light to illuminate a significant area around your fellowship? If so, then the positive morale effect of seeing all around you would remove the advantage that an adversary would gain by sneaking around in the dark.

For example, the light from a wizard's staff would actively light up an area {"Let me risk a little more light"} and would expand the safety zone of clear vision to remove the Denizen of the Dark effect. Maybe a bonfire like the one described outside the gates of Moria when the Fellowship is attacked is enough to limit the 'D of the D'
(That bonfire was a whole ring of shrubbery.) The Fire in the Burning Glade (The Hobbit: Out of the Frying Pan) is of course similar. I'd also think of the Ringfort (Herbs & Stewed Hobbit) and the defence organised by Aragorn at Weathertop if I was deciding on how big the illumination needs to be to remove the D of the effect. all of these seem to be 'magical' or a very large static bonfire.

I would say torches are not enough, unless you are a large group using a lot of torches. A regular lantern is probably also not bright enough, though it might encourage a Denizen of the Dark to attack one of your companions first. A campfire may protect a limited area around it, if it's large enough.

I'd let a big bonfire hold it off for a few feet (say, 10' or so), but fighting that close to a fire is dangerous and uncomfortable.

Elf-light I'd allow to knock it out for ONE person - either put it on a single person, or upon a single enemy... but it's a two way street. Elf-light ruins it for the Elf, too...

I will always try to reward player ingenuity and action. In this case, if the players come up with a plan to negate this special ability, I would probably roll with it, as player agency is a big thing for me.

aramis wrote:but it's a two way street. Elf-light ruins it for the Elf, too...

Personally, I am loath to use these two abilities in the same way. The Elves of the Woodland Realm are certainly not Denizens of the Dark and they have no problem with or fear of light or the sun.

Eclipse wrote:I will always try to reward player ingenuity and action. In this case, if the players come up with a plan to negate this special ability, I would probably roll with it, as player agency is a big thing for me.

aramis wrote:but it's a two way street. Elf-light ruins it for the Elf, too...

Personally, I am loath to use these two abilities in the same way. The Elves of the Woodland Realm are certainly not Denizens of the Dark and they have no problem with or fear of light or the sun.

The Wood Elves get a bonus under darkness. It's not fear, but it's also a loss of a bonus when not in the dim.

Something to remember is that Denizen of the Dark is supposed to be actually useful for the NPC villains and scary to the PCs. People are supposed to be scared or wary to go out at night or into the deep places of Mirkwood or underground because they know there are things down there that have great power in the darkness, but flee from the light of the sun.

So when considering what can negate Denizen of the Darkness, you gotta consider "does this thing make the ability completely and utterly useless" as a criteria. It's like... torches and lanterns? All of your PCs will be carrying torches and lanterns at night, because except under unusual circumstances (a clear night with a full moon) they can't really see without them, and even if they can not very well. If those can negate the power, it basically means the power is useless for the foes, and it's difficult to believe that the game designers would place in something that wasn't intended to be used or invoked.

I would even say that bonfires aren't really going to cut it. Bonfires don't throw a lot of light either. Even up close to them, they throw less light than you probably get from being in the Heart of Mirkwood during the daytime or, say, underneath that magical cloud cover Sauron popped when he was assaulting Minas Tirith so his orcs could fight in the day. Some creatures with Denizen of the Dark will probably be wary of a group standing around a big bonfire, because they're naturally cowardly (several Goblins have it as a power, as opposed to Orcs, which usually just have Hate Sunlight) but the Werewolf of Mirkwood probably doesn't give a damn about your bonfire. For that matter, a full-on goblin war party likely doesn't care about your bonfire either.

Magic is a different matter. In Middle-earth, good folk using their special connections and mastery over the world to make light are making something pure and beautiful that creatures of the Shadow hate and despise. Things like Ormal's lamps, the Lamp of Balthi, elf-lights to a certain extent, the light that Wizards can throw off, I would say that can negate Denizen of the Dark no problem, but only in limited ways. I would even go so far as to say that in the case of Wizards or of the Lamp, it would actually go so far as to trigger Hate Sunlight.

It seems pretty clear that, from both a thematic perspective (creatures of the Shadow are supposed to gain power in dark places, and that shouldn't be trivial to overcome) and a practical perspective (the game is balanced around Denizen of the Dark actually being useful to the creatures who have it) the primary way to get around Denizen of the Dark is going to only go abroad in the daytime and not to leave your brightly-lit hall at night.

Oh, as for elves... same deal. You shouldn't strip their bonus away from them if the other party members are carrying torches to light their way or have lit a cheery bonfire in the depths of the night.

Damn! Can't find the +1 or the Like button for Murcushio's post