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I remember one of my players had his bout of madness and rushed into the camp demanding them to surrender. Those were some fun times...

Rich H, your post point-by-point was how I ran it, nevertheless.

And I'm not faulting the players; from their perspective it's a perfectly valid idea, except as was mentioned in this thread 'non-kinsfolk' and 'bad area', which doesn't resonate as powerfully with everyone as it might for some like me, being a loremaster, who is steeped in this world.

Re. the 'have them be captured and play that out', that's great, if you're the kind of LM who can pull that off. I don't think I am. Beyond that in my head at the time, Valter would have had them killed, and I don't like TPKing my players in such an undramatic way ("You walk into the camp, they draw their swords. You're dead.")

I'd love to hear whether the subtlety of Oderic's character comes across in most games. I don't think my players really soaked in the duality of the rumors or his character as a whole. To them, maybe because they think 'Do good!', it's simply a matter of bringing Oderic to justice, and warning Beorn about the host. The idea that Oderic could be turned, or even talking to him about his case, never even occurred to them.

If TOR suffers from anything, it is that at times it's almost too true to the spirit of Tolkiens material, which doesn't always translate into gaming.

Of course, it doesn't help that my group is HORRIBLE at encounters, to the point where I have to carry their sorry ass over the finish line (without them knowing it) half the time. I try to highlight to them after each adventure what options they missed out on in the hope that maybe it'll incentivize them to focus more on social skills.

Heilemann wrote:
Re. the 'have them be captured and play that out', that's great, if you're the kind of LM who can pull that off. I don't think I am. Beyond that in my head at the time, Valter would have had them killed, and I don't like TPKing my players in such an undramatic way ("You walk into the camp, they draw their swords. You're dead.")

c.f. every Bond movie ever made.

Yeah, I don't get it. I understand everyone has their strengths and weaknesses but it seems to me that you can run games in several different modes. One mode is the "old school simulationist" style; you roll the dice and they tell you what to do. I don't run games like that, and I doubt that anyone here runs TOR in that style... it's all about telling a story together, because that the great inspiration of the source material. If your heroes were fated to die a rockslide or slain out of hand by a bandit, we wouldn't be telling their story, we'd be telling somebody else's.

So, yes, the PCs walk into the camp. Valter is cruel but cunning. Slaying the heroes might get some of his men killed; they look like they could handle themselves in a fight. Thus, subtlety and lies are the way to deal with these interlopers; much like he dealed with Oderic.

It's a decision that is reasonable in the game-world and keeps the PCs alive. Capturing them outright (assuming your heroes don't elect to fight to the death) also works. I would never elect to have Valter just order his men to kill the PCs. It's not any fun and it's not even super realistic (assuming that the PCs are armed and armoured, i.e. he will lose men in the process).

Heilemann wrote:And I'm not faulting the players; from their perspective it's a perfectly valid idea, except as was mentioned in this thread 'non-kinsfolk' and 'bad area', which doesn't resonate as powerfully with everyone as it might for some like me, being a loremaster, who is steeped in this world.

Then it's pretty much your job to communicate that to the players and, more importantly, their characters as those kind of things *are* important to the people of Middle Earth even if they aren't to the players. So, if something is important to a character then a player has a responsibility to play it out in such a way.

Heilemann wrote:Of course, it doesn't help that my group is HORRIBLE at encounters, to the point where I have to carry their sorry ass over the finish line (without them knowing it) half the time. I try to highlight to them after each adventure what options they missed out on in the hope that maybe it'll incentivize them to focus more on social skills.

Is that because they aren't social characters, players that don't like interacting in that kind of way, some issue with the rules, or a combination of them?

I agree with Zed on this

As for the "how to Loremaster?" always be asking yourself: what is most likely to happen, given the character's (NPC's) motivation?

Valter's immediate goal/aim is in raising an army/posse/bandit crew to raid Stonyford.

Would you think he'd rather:
-slay some guys for wandering into his camp
or
-try to recruit them so he has an even bigger force with which to raid Stonyford.

If he finds them to be spies or whatever, he always has the option of slaying them later. What are the consequences of just killing someone outright in front of his men. He appears as blood thirsty/crazy as he really is. This could be a huge detriment, as he needs to demonstrate that he is a competent leader in order to get men to follow him. (I think rather that most of the men in his camp are driven by greed, power, lust rather than just being kill happy).

Rocmistro wrote:Would you think he'd rather:
-slay some guys for wandering into his camp
or
-try to recruit them so he has an even bigger force with which to raid Stonyford.

I'm with you in so much as walking into camp wouldn't result in their immediate deaths but I think he'd surround them with his men and demand their surrender resulting in their capture. He'd then question them, recruiting them later if they convinced him to do so. A group of adventurers would have a hard time doing this in Middle Earth though; the fellowship in my campaign is made up of a Woodman, Barding, Dwarf, and Elf - I think Valter would be highly suspicious of the last two and it would make convincing him extremely difficult. Although, having a Barding to question, and recruit, would be desirable.

Well, I think the most likely thing is that he'd torture them for information and then kill them. But I'd hate to kill my players and start the campaign over because they made a mistake.

Rather than asking what is "most likely", I ask "among the various actions that are plausible, which makes for the best story for everybody?"

Some options:

1) He's actually expecting a group of new recruits to show up who somewhat match the description of the heroes. If the heroes are quick enough, they can clue into the mistake and maintain the charade. Until the folks they're impersonating show up... (I call this the "Blues Brothers at the Roadhouse" scenario.)

2) As Roc points out, the presence of certain races makes this variant tricky. So another option might be that he's expecting this group to bring an elf captive, and an outburst to the effect "why don't you have that prisoner restrained, you idiots?" might give the players one chance to catch on and play along. (We can call this the "Weapon Malfunction on the Detention Level" scenario.)

3) They players are quickly surrounded by an overwhelming force (if they screw up again and try to fight, well...) and are captured. Valter has reason to believe (mistakenly) that they have information he desperately wants, and has plans to torture them each in turn. One of his followers has been having misgivings, and helps the prisoners escape in return for taking him with them.

Are any of these scenarios "likely"? I don't think so. But certainly (in my mind) they meet some minimum threshold of plausibility.

Yup, my lot 'joined' the bandits even blagged Valtar by pretending to support his cause as true heir east of Mirkwood. Still all ended in blood and mayhem but went well for a while.

I worked on the basis that the characters looked like seasoned warriors and after awing with the scouts, they would be seen as people to have on side in a scrap even if Valtar was initially suspicious. Also, if Turin can join a bunch of brigands...

Elfcrusher wrote:3) They players are quickly surrounded by an overwhelming force (if they screw up again and try to fight, well...) and are captured. Valter has reason to believe (mistakenly) that they have information he desperately wants, and has plans to torture them each in turn. One of his followers has been having misgivings, and helps the prisoners escape in return for taking him with them.

All of Elf's scenarios are fun and meet that basic threshold of plausibility (#2 might be shaky ). But if the follower that is having the misgivings is Oderic then blam-o, you've got a reason for the PCs to give him another try and have the scenario play out as written (with the battle being at the Old Ford, most likely).