Props & Puzzles

[shipwreck]

So TOR is really my first tabletop RPG experience in spite of a lifetime of nerdular pursuits. It follows that this is my first Master (Lore/Dungeon/Game) experience as well. And being a writer and lifelong gamesman I've fallen into it with some success, if I may say so myself. That said, I'm always looking for tips and tricks to improve my home game experience and this dude, Barker, has been rather helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmkvnTIMGQw

Sure, he's a bit obnoxious but he's got some great ideas. If you don't want to watch the whole thing, all he's saying is that he likes to give his [D&D] players actual puzzles and riddles to solve. It might be a 'Zelda' type puzzle (light the torches in order, etc.) or a prop that is an actual puzzle to be solved out of character or a riddle he looked up on the Google.

Looking at this video in particular got me thinking and I wanted to throw this out to you all as food for thought. How would you adapt this kind of thing to TOR as Loremaster? Allow rolls to make the puzzle easier? Keep it 'real', with no consideration given to the character sheet? Does it totally depend on your players?

And, as players, would you enjoy it?

[zedturtle]

The challenge with that is that you are then challenging the players instead of the characters. Remember, the characters have a much better understanding of the world they live in than the players do. As a Loremaster you can't expkain everything in excruciating detail nor can you convey all of the cultural norms. That's what the traits and skills of the character represent.

That isn't to say that you can't do something. Maybe the characters can piece together some ancient legend from their lores, Riddle tests, Insight tests, Encounters, etc. And maybe you can represent that by puzzle pieces handed out to the players. When a player wants to make a guess of what the puzzle refers to, have them make an appropriate test and, if successful, they can announce it the answer in character.

[Falenthal]

There's a board-game, Mansions of Madness, that handles this things very well:

You, the Player, have to solve some puzzles, but your character's Mind stat says the maximum number of movements you can make to solve it.

The initial setting of the puzzle is random, so it might be that it is unsolvable without a minimum number of movements.
Of course, your own intelligence comes into play, but the characters stat gives you a wider or narrower margin.
There's also a time limit to put stress on.

It might appeal to you or not, depending on your type of gaming.
To get a glimpse of the method, look at this video from 4:50 on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8OQyVjU07A

[shipwreck]

You, the Player, have to solve some puzzles, but your character's Mind stat says the maximum number of movements you can make to solve it.

Dude makes that very same suggestion in the video, where INT score would determine how long the player has to get the puzzle done. Wits is the obvious stat for TOR (or maybe Heart if that represents how determined they are...), so that may be a good bridge between the player and the character.

[Stormcrow]

The challenge with that is that you are then challenging the players instead of the characters.

In the earliest days of Dungeons & Dragons, this was exactly the point. Your character was simply your avatar into the game world, your game-piece; the point was for the players to be challenged. You weren't out to drive a character like an engine on a track. Where is the satisfaction, for instance, in solving a puzzle if all you have to do was roll against your character's Riddle skill?

This is why I have a problem with, say, making a player give a speech to a non-player character and then also making them roll against a skill. What is the game trying to achieve? Who's in charge, the player or the character? Originally, "role-playing" meant What would you do in this situation? Later it became How well can you act out the part of this character? Are we just taking in funny voices and playing at improvisational acting, or is this a game with game-like challenges?

[zedturtle]

The challenge with that is that you are then challenging the players instead of the characters.

In the earliest days of Dungeons & Dragons, this was exactly the point. Your character was simply your avatar into the game world, your game-piece; the point was for the players to be challenged. You weren't out to drive a character like an engine on a track. Where is the satisfaction, for instance, in solving a puzzle if all you have to do was roll against your character's Riddle skill?

This is why I have a problem with, say, making a player give a speech to a non-player character and then also making them roll against a skill. What is the game trying to achieve? Who's in charge, the player or the character? Originally, "role-playing" meant What would you do in this situation? Later it became How well can you act out the part of this character? Are we just taking in funny voices and playing at improvisational acting, or is this a game with game-like challenges?

This sounds like it could be a productive conversation, if the OP doesn't mind it getting a little off track.

I used to play (and run) games in the style you describe. I'm even playing in one game that is sort of that style right now (Stars Without Number, sci-fi with a D&Dish engine, B/X in flavor). But that's also why I said my bit about the characters knowing more than the players. The number of people who, thrown back in time to 800 AD Britain, properly impress a lord in an encounter probably numbers only a couple dozen on a planet of billions. And that's a more realistic scenario than treating with Thranduil. The character stats are our interface to a world that we can model only imprecisely (much like Tolkien's writings are stories of great events, not a factual recording of what actually happened). Do I give people who roleplay well a bonus to their TN? Absolutely. Do I think what happens in a game session is exactly what "really" happened? Heck no.

[shipwreck]

Do I give people who roleplay well a bonus to their TN? Absolutely. Do I think what happens in a game session is exactly what "really" happened? Heck no.

This is the kind of thing I think is helpful in discerning cases of Loremaster Discrection.

So, if I think having a Sudoku (or something) in my game would be fun for my players, then I'll do it and tie in their characters stats somehow. I would not grant a reduction in TN for good roleplaying, but I may award an advancement point or make it an automatic Great Success or the like, depending on the situation and my players.

Which does speak to my original post: how do we, or should we even, adapt these kinds of things to our games?

[Hermes Serpent]

There are a number of game systems where props of one sort or another enhance the game. Handouts, maps, letters, trinkets and pictures all add to the sense of time and place and provide clues in an investigative game. Call of Cthulhu is noted for the use of handouts and props for example.

I'll use clipped sections from maps to focus attention on an area. Plans of villages, a picture of an inn or location. Sometimes I use the appropriate picture from the ones C7 puts in the books and sometimes it's something I came across in a search. A picture of a person helps immensely when visualising what the LM is saying about them. I usually have my laminated players map of Rhovanion out in the middle of the table so that the players can check relative positions of places. Mini sections of this I'll print out with things that a local may know of added. I found a picture of a flask and added the text from Tales concerning Mirkwood cordial and the player has that tucked into his character folder. I did a similar printout of the details for a Hound of Mirkwood for the Woodman so he doesn't have to look the details up each time. These are helpful props but don't add much to flavour or background for the game.

As far as puzzles go I think that they distract from the game and as has been pointed out rely on the smarts of the player rather than the very smart character who may have studied legends, tales and riddle stories as part of his training. I well remember a Gm pulling out one of the riddles from the old Penguin paperback collection of Anglo-Saxon poems and riddles. I'd read it many years ago but it's well known. Unfortunately I knew it well but the other, mostly US-based, players didn't have a clue which rather made it a bit of a non-starter. Anything that relies on esoteric knowledge is probably not something that needs to be used as it's going to almost certainly going to cause players to come out of any immersion they have in the game world.

[Blubbo Baggins]

This doesn't address exactly where this discussion was going (The merits of puzzles and how to use them because - Are you playing the game with your knowledge or the pcs? At least, that is my understanding)...

However, one way an LM can run a Riddle or certain kinds of puzzles is to not have a specific answer in mind.
Instead, create a Riddle or Puzzle that is open-ended, or has multiple solutions. It doesn't need to appear this way, and your players certainly should not know it is open-ended. BUT, instead of waiting to see if they can figure out the one answer to your Riddle (and if they don't, then what? What if not solving it means TPK?!), wait and see what they come up with. When they come up with an answer that fits well, or surprises you, or is particularly clever, then they have solved it!

This also avoids using a Riddle from the real world, where you might have one player who knows it already, and that defeats the purpose or fun of the moment.

There doesn't need to be a "true" solution to a Riddle or puzzle you come up with, especially if you add a time limitation. The pressing need to come up with an answer quickly will create tension and fun, and a way to use skills in a non-combat scenario. That's the point right?

Clever use of skills should provide knowledge/hints to help them along. Or perhaps use of skills will provide them more time as the orcs beat down the door and they've just got to figure out how to get the stone gate open!

[Hermes Serpent]

I've used a Riddle in my convention demo game Halls of Durin - Secret of Khazad-Dum
I wrote it out in English and changed the text to Dwarven runes to look a little more interesting. I put the English translation on the other side of the sheet.

Kibil-Nâla, springing forth like silver, spilling through Azanulbizar to the realm of the First Children of Ilúvatar.
Seek first the origins of Khazad-Dûm.
Face away from the rising sun on the first day of Summer and, when the first gleams light up Zirakzigil,
a sign shows the secret way to blackwalled Khazad-Dûm, whose crystal lamps reflect like stars in Kheled-zâram.

No prizes for guessing where I got the inspiration for this
Tolkien fans will get this almost straight away, but I got the players to test Riddle, Rhymes of Lore or Old Lore as possibilities to solve the puzzle (TN14). And gave them clues. As the characters are all Dwarves I automatically gave them the information about the named places as common knowledge amongst Dwarves.
Azanulbizar – the valley named Dimrill Dale. Site of a great battle in the Third Age (2799) where Dain II killed Azog.
First Children – Elves
Origins of Khazad-Dûm– the rune-carved stone set where Durin first gazed into Kheled-zâram.
Kibil-Nâla – the springs that are the start of the Silverlode and which feed Mirrormere.
Zirakzigil – the mountain also named Silvertine.
Kheled-zâram – Mirrormere.

High above Azanulbizar in the bowl carved out of the rocks by Kheled-zaram the dwarves find a worn and cracked stone (Search TN16). Orienting themselves to the east they wait for sunrise. A successful Search test (TN16 for Dwarves allows anyone to spot a shining spot on the rock face as the first rays of the sun hit it.

So it's quite easy to include a prop and a puzzle in one and make it a fun part of the game without making it a brain twister.