Suggestions on what stats to give to Anguirel

[EPenna]

So, I've been composing the Magical Index for my Darkening of Mirkwood campaign, and having recently read The Children of Húrin, I had the idea of having Anguirel (Eöl the Dark Elf's blade, and mate of Beleg/Túrin's Anglachel/Gurthang) being the Famous Weapon for my group's Dúnadan, and I've been wondering what Qualities and Enchanted Qualities it should have.

(and before anyone points it out: yeah, I know it's highly unlikely such a weapon would have survived the flooding of Beleriand at the end of the War of Wrath; and yet both Orcrist and Glamdring did, so as far as I'm concerned I'm just cribbing from the Professor's playbook here)

We know basically nothing about Anguirel, except that 1) Eöl forged it from meteoric iron, 2) It was Anglachel's mate (whatever that means), and 3) Maeglin stole it from his father and took it with him to Gondolin. So the only thing we can be 100% certain as far as game stats go is that its Crafsmanship is Elven. We do know quite a bit about Anglachel, though, and since it is mentioned that both blades are mates and that both were made of meteoric iron, I'll assume they're similar to each other. So, as far as Banes go, while really, really powerful, I can't see it being anything but the Enemy: Anglachel was sharp enough to kill Glaurung (sure, it only pierced it's soft underbelly, but the soft underbelly of the Father of Dragons is still probably pretty tough), and is basically the most badass magical sword in the whole Legendarium (excluding weapons wielded by the Valar, of course), so Anguirel should have this powerful Bane, too.

At first I though about not giving Anguirel Luminescence, because I remembered Anglachel being black and not glowing. But after reading Anglachel's heading at Tolkien Gateway (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Anglachel), I was reminded that it did glow before being reforged into Gurthang, so it makes sense for it to have Luminescence, unlike its more famous mate.

One thing Túrin's story makes IMO pretty clear is that Anglachel/Gurthang is dangerous to everyone, not just servants of the Enemy. So I want at least one quality to be something that's not specific against its Bane. Superior Grievous (since it's of Elven Craftsmanship) and Superior Fell both fit the bill, and I'll pick Superior Grievous because the last quality I'll pick will affect the sword's Edge, which would overlap with Superior Fell's bonus.

At last, I want to make use of that sweet, sweet Enemy Bane. So I'll be giving Anguirel Foe-Slaying.

So yeah, pretty powerful. Maybe too powerful, especially if you consider its intended wielder is a Dúnadan, which is already more powerful than other cultures (although, to be honest, I suspect that over time the extra XP cost to raise Weapon skills and Valour/Wisdom, and the inability to use the Fellowship Pool to recover Hope, more than makes up for the head start). But Anglachel's main characteristic was that it was cursed: when Beleg chooses it in Thingol's armoury, Melian points out that the blade has a malice of its own, due to the wicked heart of its creator. So I fully intend to make Anguirel a cursed object, even if the player doesn't roll an Eye of Sauron on her Hoard roll.

But what curse to give it? One thing to keep in mind is that Eöl chose to keep Anguirel to himself, and that Maeglin thought it was valuable enough to be stolen before escaping Nan Elmoth. Also, Eöl strikes me as the kind of person who would choose to give the blade with the worse curse to his liege lord Thingol, while keeping the other one to himself. So personally, while I think Anguirel is cursed (because any blade forged by someone as dark as Eöl would be so), I don't think it's as dire as Anglachel's curse, and that's why Eöl chose to keep it (or, just as likely, maybe Eöl intentionally cursed Anglachel). Of the existing curses, the ones that strike me as most appropriate are Curse of Weakness and Malice. Malice would fit Anglachel like a glove, and since in my opinion Anguirel doesn't share its mates curse, I'll discard it. I like Curse of Weakness because it can have a very subtle effect, the kind of curse people like Eöl and Maeglin would not notice (and, in fact, depending on how much permanent Shadow they had, wouldn't really affect them, since it's perfectly possible they already have that Shadow Weakness without the curse's help). Shadow Taint would also fit, since Maeglin fought on Morgoth's side at the Fall of Gondolin. As it currently stands, I think the Angirel is powerful enough to justify two curses, with the possibility of lifting the Shadow Taint one, and Curse of Weakness being a characteristic inherent to the blade more than a proper curse, and being basically impossible to lift except for truly legendary acts that change the nature of the blade itself (like breaking the blade in a truly selfless act that costs the wielder his or her life, and then reforging it).

So, we end with the following stats:

Type: Long sword
Craftsmanship: Elven
Banes: the Enemy
Qualities:
1. Luminescence
2. Superior Grievous
3. Foe-slaying
Curses: Curse of Weakness, Shadow Taint (3)

So, what does everyone think? Suggestions, comments, constructive criticism, all are welcome.

[Robin Smallburrow]

Suggest you use Nazgul 2000's ideas for Anglachel (Gurthang) as a starting point, as both blades were made by Eol:

14. Gurthang. "Iron of Death."
Type: Longsword
Craftmanship: Elven
Banes: all living things
Qualities:
1. Superior grievous
2. Superior keen
3. Foe slaying
Notes: the sword of both Beleg and Turin, forged from Anglachel, the black blade of the Dark Elf Eol. It is said that the iron of its blade fell to Middle-earth from an asteroid, giving it unparalleled sharpness. A sentient blade that constantly thirsts for blood, its qualities show its propensity for killing single enemies fast - as evidenced by Turin's slaying Glaurung in one blow. Alas, it is also cursed, as its other name "Black Blade" attests - its wielder will suffer from the "Darken" curse.

Robin S.

[PST]

Suggest you use Nazgul 2000's ideas for Anglachel (Gurthang) as a starting point, as both blades were made by Eol:

<SNIP>

Alas, it is also cursed, as its other name "Black Blade" attests - its wielder will suffer from the "Darken" curse.

Robin S.

I think that's a pretty big misreading of Anglachel/Gurthang that's directly contradicted by the text (Both in the Sil and the Children of Hurin)

Firstly nowhere is there any suggestion that unsheathing the blade causes shadows to deepen and light to go out, quite the opposite in fact:

'...and though ever black, its edges shone with pale fire; and he named it Gurthang, Iron of Death'

''...and the edges of Gurthang shone as with flame'

'...and the edges of Gurthang flickered like flame in his hand.'

This in particular clearly shows that Darken isn't a fitting curse at all:

'And Turambar swept Gurthang from its sheath and stabbed with it up above his head, and it seemed to those that looked on that a flame leapt from Turambar’s hand many feet into the air. Then they gave a great cry: ‘The Black Thorn of Brethil!’

The blade being black is simply the property of the metal, being meteoric iron.

As for the curse, Melian says 'There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves; neither will it abide with you long.'

Given the story of the blades, Malice or Ill Luck would seem fitting, but you could also argue convincingly for Shadow Taint and Curse of Weakness.

Anguirel is less clear, with there being less information on it, Shadow Taint and Ill Luck would be how i'd do it.

[Glorelendil]

I think that's a pretty big misreading of Anglachel/Gurthang that's directly contradicted by the text (Both in the Sil and the Children of Hurin)

While there's nothing in the text to suggest a Darkening affect, it doesn't contradict the text, and isn't a mis-reading: it's just adding to what we know. In fact, the firey glint on the edges of the sword would be more dramatic (and noticeable) if other light sources were dimmed.

I guess you could argue that such a Darkening effect would be unlikely to be overlooked in a description of the sword, and thus by logical extension couldn't be accurate. But if we restrict our imagination of Middle Earth to be only precisely what the Professor thought to include it would be a fairly empty world.

Not sure I'd include such a famous weapon in my campaign, but it's fun reading other people's ideas for it.

[PST]

I think that's a pretty big misreading of Anglachel/Gurthang that's directly contradicted by the text (Both in the Sil and the Children of Hurin)

While there's nothing in the text to suggest a Darkening affect, it doesn't contradict the text, and isn't a mis-reading: it's just adding to what we know. In fact, the firey glint on the edges of the sword would be more dramatic (and noticeable) if other light sources were dimmed.

You seem to be failing critical analysis 101.
There is nothing in the text to suggest X
The text says not X
Therefore either X is not the case, or you are ignoring the text and making your own unsupported assertion.

How many AR-15 Assault rifles did the orcs have in Moria? Afterall their existence doesn't directly contradict the text therefore...

As I specifically stated not only is there no reference to Anglachel/Glaurung darkening anything when drawn. it's repeatedly referenced as being bright edged and/or having a flare of light when drawn. To try and argue that that's in comparison to the darkness it causes is entirely unsupported by the text. Which is great for 'I don't care what Tolkien said, I'm doing it my way', but don't try and pretend it's in any way a logical supposition from what's been written on the subject.

[Glorelendil]

I think that's a pretty big misreading of Anglachel/Gurthang that's directly contradicted by the text (Both in the Sil and the Children of Hurin)

While there's nothing in the text to suggest a Darkening affect, it doesn't contradict the text, and isn't a mis-reading: it's just adding to what we know. In fact, the firey glint on the edges of the sword would be more dramatic (and noticeable) if other light sources were dimmed.

You seem to be failing critical analysis 101.
There is nothing in the text to suggest X
The text says not X
Therefore either X is not the case, or you are ignoring the text and making your own unsupported assertion.

How many AR-15 Assault rifles did the orcs have in Moria? Afterall their existence doesn't directly contradict the text therefore...

As I specifically stated not only is there no reference to Anglachel/Glaurung darkening anything when drawn. it's repeatedly referenced as being bright edged and/or having a flare of light when drawn. To try and argue that that's in comparison to the darkness it causes is entirely unsupported by the text. Which is great for 'I don't care what Tolkien said, I'm doing it my way', but don't try and pretend it's in any way a logical supposition from what's been written on the subject.

You seem to be failing at "people on this forum have manners" 101.

Just sayin'.

[Rocmistro]

...How many AR-15 Assault rifles...

The answer is, obviously, none, because the AR-15 is not an assault rifle. A civilian LAR-15, lacking a 3 round burst and/or fully automatic fire, does not qualify as an assault rifle.

[Glorelendil]

...How many AR-15 Assault rifles...

The answer is, obviously, none, because the AR-15 is not an assault rifle. A civilian LAR-15, lacking a 3 round burst and/or fully automatic fire, does not qualify as an assault rifle.

Good catch, I missed that.

EDIT: I was going to leave the irony of PSTs accusations floating out there, for amusement. But I realized that it will be soon be morning in the UK and I'm sure a few characters (such as Hermes) will leap in and point it out. Thus, to preempt:

Dear PST,

All the descriptions of the sword involve a small amount of light on the edges (see your own quotations). None of those are mutually exclusive with the concept of dimming other nearby light sources. Therefore there is no contradiction, and surely the suggestion that there is a contradiction would lead to a poor showing on your Critical Analysis 101 final exam.

But maybe you sensed that, because then you jump into the AR-15 analogy, in what I sense as desperation. This, you would know if you had been paying attention in aforementioned Critical Analysis class, is the fallacy called reductio ad absurbum. (Never mind Roc's very astute point about firearm terminology. That is the logical fallacy known as bluestatus guncontrolus ignoramus, first described by St. Augustine, I believe.)

Unless, of course, you truly feel that an enchantment that dimmed nearby lights would be as out of place in Middle Earth as a modern sporting rifle. It is absolutely your prerogative to hold that belief, but you may not want to advertise it.

Certainly you don't have to like the OPs idea. And honestly I'm not sure I do, either; I was merely trying to be supportive of another poster after a newcomer, who obviously didn't know the local culture, was rudely dismissive of his post, which was by no stretch of logic a gross misreading of the text, or a contradiction of canon.

[EPenna]

First of all, thanks for the replies, everyone.

PST, while I agree with you that Darken is a bad fit for Gurthang, you could have been more diplomatic about it: there was no need for your hyperbolic AR-15 example. Also, I disagree that Gurthang was black because it was made of meteoric iron: first because steel made from meteoric iron isn't inherently darker than regular steel (google Sir Terry Pratchett's sword for a real life example), and also because Anglachel is only described as black right after it's used to kill Beleg and breaks, before that the blade's color is never mentioned. Considering that Gurthang's color is mentioned many times (presumably because it's unusual), my theory is that it's black not due to its materials, but that it became black after it was used to kill its master, Beleg. By this logic I conclude that Anguirel isn't black like its mate, since it was never used to kill its own master.

Looking at Nazgûl 2000's stats for Anglachel posted by Robin Smallburrow, it matches quite a bit with my own ideas. I obviously disagree with the Darken curse, and while the All Living Things Bane is perfect for Anglachel, I prefer limiting Anguirel to the Enemy Bane, since the Luminescence quality would be useless if Everything was its Bane. Anglachel did like to nick and cut people by mistake at the worst of times, so Ill-luck would fit, but, again, I prefer Curse of Weakness because it's something that Maeglin and Eöl wouldn't mind.

Elfcrusher, as for including such a famous weapon... Is it really that famous? Its mate certainly is, but knowledge of Anguirel strikes me as fairly obscure for the peoples of Middle-Earth, with Glamdring being much more well known.

[Hermes Serpent]

@Eduardo, your last paragraph has given me an idea that I'm going to put in another thread. What's famous and who would know?

Thanks for the trigger.