Struggling

[Robin Smallburrow]

This issue has IIRC come up before in previous threads - my own contribution I think was to suggest the players play 'bad characters' for a bit so they can see the consequences. Perhaps you need different players??

I did run an adventure once where all the players played orcs, just to show them what it was like - Paranoid is a good way to describe it.

There is also an excellent article in Other Minds on playing evil characters, I recommend you read it (forget which issue)

Robin S

[Pangea]

Celebril, you mention

I am not about to house rule the Shadow rules so we can have a more D&D/Pathfinder type game

so I imagine you might draw a parallel with mechanics from those games: TOR characters could be seen like D&D-style characters with oaths/order rules to follow (like Paladins). And would they be okay to play a D&D game with all Paladin-style characters who abide by a strong code, or lose their powers and such?

As has been stated above, it is about playing a classical Hero: who does not steal, who will mainly prefer to die alongside his friends rather than run to save his skin etc. (the good thing with Middle Earth vs. films from the 50's, is that the Hero can smoke!). If they do not like the genre, then it is a problem for TOR (which does not accommodate playing the "Dirty Dozen", ex-convicts from Bree sent to murder Sauron, which could be fun if people want to play that, but would not as Tolkien/Middle Earth as TOR is).

[Rieno]

In reference to this game, I am very happy with the tone and the way this system works, making the game feel like middle earth and Tolkien. However, I am worried about the recent video game, "Shadow of Mordor" and it's effects on player's perceptions of middle earth.

Talion seems to be your basic "antihero" who acts like a deconstructed comic book superhero, ala Watchmen that seems to be the template for every single video game character and comic book antihero ever since.

He's no different from the God of War character, etc. In fact, in some ways, he moves past all these antiheroes with the additional benefit of being able to "dominate" others:

"The most important of Talion's abilities is his power to strike fear into and dominate Uruk, allowing him to access a whole host of opportunities. These enemies will then perform tasks such as gathering intel, spreading dissent, or attempting to assassinate their peers, underlings and commanders"

"Domination is an ability within Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor. It allows Talion to control the minds of Uruks and various other creatures, such as Caragors and Graugs, forcing them to do his bidding."

(from the Wikia for Shadow of Mordor)

The character controls the minds of orcs and has them assassinate their comrades, lie and cheat, etc.

To be fair, I was thinking about this and Gandalf sews some dissent among the trolls by throwing voices, but he doesn't "possess" or "dominate" their wills. This seems very un-herolike, and very Sauron like. Talion is a wraith.

The entire story focuses around the theme of "vengence, revenge, etc.". Is this even really herolike? Thinking about justice vs. revenge, which side of the scale does Talion tip on?

The game seems to say, "the ends justify the means" in that Talion can manipulate hordes of orcs by possessing them, etc.

I just think that this game will add confusion to what a Middle Earth game is about. My initial impressions based on the new live action trailer, the previews, etc. is that it doesn't feel like a real "middle earth" game. On the other hand, maybe there are opportunities for showing redemption, goodness in the orcs, etc. I don't know.

I do know I hope none of my PC's are asking to be possessed half wraith antihero's. What do you think about it?

[Rieno]

To add to this, the "Slayer" character type does deal with revenge, etc. but also has it's own pitfalls/shadow potential to show for the balancing of it.

[Glorelendil]

I am worried about the recent video game, "Shadow of Mordor" and it's effects on player's perceptions of middle earth.
...
What do you think about it?

It can hardly do more damage than previous video games, movies, etc. I'm not worried at all.

[Fridokind Wargaug]

In my group there is this one Hobbit with ridiculous amount of luck and a high stealth score. So he has decided to become an assassin for this mafioso guy living in Esgaroth, who offered him this position in reward for this crazy short sword. So now I have a Hobbit who has to kill 11 people (some of them are bad guys, but mostly not But since then, he knows the price for the sword and is willing to accumulate shadow points.

But I gues my group is a bit weird in this perspective. The one guy stole the sword of the other one, so other burnt his holding down. Then we had two cases of torture (the torturer has already succumbed to the shadow ) now.

So, we aren't into the black and white stuff, too. I like to do evil things with my NPCs, they like to do evil things by themselves. They get shadow points, but they want to play their heros authentically.

[Stilts]

Then we had two cases of torture (the torturer has already succumbed to the shadow ) now.

I'm going to use the Butchers of Hilltown as antagonists in an adventure now.

[Fridokind Wargaug]

I'm going to use the Butchers of Hilltown as antagonists in an adventure now.

Group consisted at this part of a Hobbit, Balbo "Took" (he tells everybody he is a Took nobleman, but a actually he is fake and a shell gamer), a Barding, Halvidur, and a Beroning, Raoul. Raoul succumbed to the shadow 2949, so if you meet them later, he is gone then. Additinally, there are four charakters who did not participate at the Butchering of Hilltown, because they were doing the hunt from Words of the Wise in Rhosgobel (never split your up group )

Just for you to know, whom your group has to antagonize

[JoeArcher]

In reference to this game, I am very happy with the tone and the way this system works, making the game feel like middle earth and Tolkien. However, I am worried about the recent video game, "Shadow of Mordor" and it's effects on player's perceptions of middle earth.

Talion seems to be your basic "antihero" who acts like a deconstructed comic book superhero, ala Watchmen that seems to be the template for every single video game character and comic book antihero ever since.

He's no different from the God of War character, etc. In fact, in some ways, he moves past all these antiheroes with the additional benefit of being able to "dominate" others:

"The most important of Talion's abilities is his power to strike fear into and dominate Uruk, allowing him to access a whole host of opportunities. These enemies will then perform tasks such as gathering intel, spreading dissent, or attempting to assassinate their peers, underlings and commanders"

"Domination is an ability within Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor. It allows Talion to control the minds of Uruks and various other creatures, such as Caragors and Graugs, forcing them to do his bidding."

(from the Wikia for Shadow of Mordor)

The character controls the minds of orcs and has them assassinate their comrades, lie and cheat, etc.

To be fair, I was thinking about this and Gandalf sews some dissent among the trolls by throwing voices, but he doesn't "possess" or "dominate" their wills. This seems very un-herolike, and very Sauron like. Talion is a wraith.

The entire story focuses around the theme of "vengence, revenge, etc.". Is this even really herolike? Thinking about justice vs. revenge, which side of the scale does Talion tip on?

The game seems to say, "the ends justify the means" in that Talion can manipulate hordes of orcs by possessing them, etc.

I just think that this game will add confusion to what a Middle Earth game is about. My initial impressions based on the new live action trailer, the previews, etc. is that it doesn't feel like a real "middle earth" game. On the other hand, maybe there are opportunities for showing redemption, goodness in the orcs, etc. I don't know.

I do know I hope none of my PC's are asking to be possessed half wraith antihero's. What do you think about it?

I don't know... I just want it to be fun. The last thing I want is an action game where tolkiens slow pace sets the rythm for combat... that would be boring

It's just a video game and the hero is clearly not one of the good guys. The game looks to be fun for a few hours and it certainly has no chance of ruining the view I have built up of middle earth since the first time I read the hobbit

[Glorelendil]

In my group there is this one Hobbit with ridiculous amount of luck and a high stealth score. So he has decided to become an assassin for this mafioso guy living in Esgaroth, who offered him this position in reward for this crazy short sword. So now I have a Hobbit who has to kill 11 people (some of them are bad guys, but mostly not But since then, he knows the price for the sword and is willing to accumulate shadow points.

But I gues my group is a bit weird in this perspective. The one guy stole the sword of the other one, so other burnt his holding down. Then we had two cases of torture (the torturer has already succumbed to the shadow ) now.

So, we aren't into the black and white stuff, too. I like to do evil things with my NPCs, they like to do evil things by themselves. They get shadow points, but they want to play their heros authentically.

And to think that all this time I've been using the phrase "ninja hobbit assassin" facetiously to represent all the things TOR is not.

This thread is making me sad.