Struggling

[Celebril]

I am struggling with my gaming group over the Shadow rules. 4 of the 8 people in the group really dislike the Shadow rules, more specifically "Misdeeds" and "Anguish". For example, one player ran from a battle and left several of the others to fend for themselves. I warned him that if he did that again I would give him Shadow points. He is upset that self preservation is Shadow inducing. He doesn't see that as cowardice. Then this last adventure I gave them a filler investigation type adventure and they wanted to torture one of the NPCs for information. I warned them that if they did that they would all get 5 Shadow points. Then they started to complain that Tolkien's world is too black and white. I don't know what to do. I am not about to house rule the Shadow rules so we can have a more D&D/Pathfinder type game. Part of me just wants to stop LM'ing the game. How have other people handled this? I am sure it has come up in other gaming groups.

[Falenthal]

Shadow is so central to the game, as is Hope, that if your players don't share the way it works, you'd better look for another game. It is true that, to enjoy TOR, the players have to agree with the moral views of Tolkien's world (not to confuss with Tolkien's moral). If you do harm people or let people be harmed, you're sliding into the Shadow. If your players are more "the end justifies the means", then TOR is not for them... and definitely you won't enjoy LMing it.

Maybe you could turn to MERP or CODA to play in Middle-Earth.
Or to Cthulhu or Vampire to see if they find an appeal to restraining themselves from doing everything that passes their minds, regardless of consequences.

[Glorelendil]

You're experience is not unique. I didn't specifically have this problem, but my D&D group definitely wasn't into the spirit of Tolkien when we tried TOR.

I'd try talking to your players and explain to them that the goals of this game are different than in your typical D&D/Pathfinder game. In the example of running away, it doesn't have to be called cowardice, but leaving your companions to die...even if it's the rational thing to do...is going to lead to self-doubt, self-justification, fear of being perceived a coward, and a dozen other insidious thoughts and fears that open up his heart to influence by the Enemy. You just can't abandon your friends without feeling bad about it (or, if you can, you've already got the Shadow points racked up.)

And that's what Shadow is really measuring, not really "evilness" or even things like cowardice or greed, but rather it represents the hero's susceptibility to the lies and deceits of the Enemy. Cowardice and greed are merely symptoms.

[Heilemann]

Maybe you need to have a conversation around Tolkien-esque themes and motifs. It is in many ways a more black and white world, but that's part of what's supposed to be great about it; I know that it's one of the things we enjoy a lot to be honest. I sold it to my players as being about being heroes. They very much get the spirit of the game.

Have they read Tolkien? I assume they've at least seen the films, which if nothing else should give them the context. But honestly, if they want to torture someone, maybe ToR just isn't for them?

[Arthadan]

I recommend you to take a look to the alternate rules in Other Minds #14 ("Hope and Shadow", in page 64).

You can download it here.

[Stilts]

Your player who ran away is actually displaying the Cowardly shadow flaw: "A cowardly hero cares only for his own safety under any circumstances, and will go to any length to save himself when a threat arises."

The bottom line is that your players are supposed to be heroic. Choosing not to risk yourself to help others, even if it would put you in danger, does not reflect heroic behavior. Sauron preys on people exactly like this, because they help him sow disunity in Middle-Earth and they are more vulnerable to temptation. That's what the concept of Shadow reflects.

It's black and white because there are some things that are inherently wrong to do. Not necessarily harmful, violent, or overtly evil, but simply wrong. Leaving others to die is wrong. Torture is wrong. Stealing something that belongs to someone else is wrong. If some of the players prefer to do things that way, they can, but they will receive shadow points and risk developing shadow flaws. If they enjoy doing those things, and actually display shadow flaws before they acquire them, then they can't really argue about receiving those flaws as a result.

[Glorelendil]

It's black and white because there are some things that are inherently wrong to do. Not necessarily harmful, violent, or overtly evil, but simply wrong. Leaving others to die is wrong.

I was agreeing with you up till this point. I'm not sure it is "wrong" to save your own skin. But it's not..."strong"...either. It displays the absence of the qualities that makes one resistant to the lies and deceits of Sauron.

Don't forget that seeing mutilated corpses, or losing a loved one, can cause Shadow gain. Did the hero do anything "wrong" in that case? No, but the mental anguish leads to moments of self-doubt that makes one susceptible to the Enemy.

I don't think "right" and "wrong" are the most accurate terms to use here. I think it's more about Confidence and Fear.

[Stilts]

Right, there are other sources of Shadow gain besides misdeeds. I was just pointing out that there is a particular way that heroes are expected to behave. A farmer or traveling merchant would certainly not be scorned for fleeing, but if a character who is equipped to face threats is on the scene, other people look to that character to do something about it.

Additionally, the company of players is built on trust, like the Fellowship of the Ring. If a companion runs off during a fight, would they be willing to give him a fair share of treasure, or let him represent the company when talking to leaders? Even if the fleeing character left behind others who weren't a part of the company, it still casts doubt on his trustworthiness. For a bunch of people spending months looking out for each other and sharing responsibility, that kind of behavior just doesn't fit. That's why I called it wrong. There are other ways to put it, but that's how I explain it to my players.

[JoeArcher]

Even when playing Warhammer, torture, cruelty and other negative behaviour will have consequences. If people want to live out their little sadistic fantasies, then so be it, but at my table it will have consequences even when playing in a dark and grim setting like warhammer. There is a fine line between being a group of misfist, misunderstood "heroes" and then degenerating to evil. Even when my players want to dabble in black magic, they do it with the knowledge that there is a risk they will lose their character. I do not allow chaos spawn as a playable race or chaos cultists as a selectable career

And playing in Tolkiens world is a whole other ball park, where that sort of character behaviour will ruin the setting. That kind of behaviour should be saved for times of madness, where the GM could allow the player to keep control if he's mature about playing his shadow weakness.

[Falenthal]

All in all, Celebril, I think you should sit down with your players and let them read the Shadows and Stars chapter in the LM book. Then discuss it and hear what they think about the mechanic and what it means about the kind of character they should play. It's not that Middle-Earth is black&white, it's about the kind of character that becomes a heroe in Middle-Earth. In front of the danger and the certain death, the player's characters are to behave like Gandalf, not like Saruman. There is a Saruman in Middle-Earth, and a Grima, and a Bill Ferny, and a Lake-town governor, but their's not the stories TOR is about.

Tell them that, if the group is going to play TOR, then this rules/criteria need to be followed and applied. Otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense to play TOR. Maybe they can at least try to play as it's expected from the game.
Star Wars is also a game with it's Force and Dark Side points, even if you could play a Smuggler. People usually don't have problems with that setting. Could be a good example if your gamers know it.