Giving Shadow Points for...

[Anachronist]

Gandalf set Saruman free at Isengart, as did Frodo in the Shire, Theoden let Grima go in Meduseld, noone killed Gollum, when they had the chance (and there were a lot of chances). There is pity in Sam for the dead Haradrim.

Pity and forgiveness keeps Tolkiens heroes on the track. Anger and the desire for revenge leeds them away. I think there can be no doubt about it. Shooting a fleeing man in the back is a misdeed. Even knowing that a man has not changed his evil ways does not hinder the free people to act like honorable men (again Grima and Saruman).

[Deadmanwalking]

In none of those cases were the people released likely to immediately alert other evildoers and almost certainly get the heroes killed. As might be the case if, say, the PCs were scouting a bandit or orc encampment stealthily and were faced with a guard patrol.

Not that I disagree with your main point, mind you, but all those examples were situations where, while possibly leading to future badness, there were no immediate dire consequences to showing mercy. In other words, situations where mercy was a viable choice. It's not always, which makes for a certain amount of grey area in terms of killing people fleeing from battle.

Something that amounts to self defense (ie: this guy is running to get more people to come back and kill me, I better kill him first) shouldn't, IMO, count as a Misdeed.

Killing prisoners is pretty much always gonna result in Shadow, though. I mean, they may be inconvenient, but letting them live is pretty much never the kind of immediate risk I'm talking about.

[Angelalex242]

...The other side of that being, how often do PCs take prisoners? It's usually 'no quarter asked or given' that I've seen so far.

[SirGalrim]

So in the first TOR game we played a few weeks ago the characters tracked down some brigands that had taken captive a craftsman that had found something of value. They kept at an abandoned farm. And the thugs spotted the characters coming. The characters suspected that that these where brigands and up to no good, but they didn't
t have it confirmed. A man yelled at the group not to come any closer they where not welcome. The man insisted they where simple trappers have taking temporary residence at the farm. The adventurers suspected him of lying. They walked closer at the brigands came out and fired arrows at the group. So combat followed. This was the first combat for the adventuring group. The opponents where all humans. Although the adventurers had tried to avoid combat at the beginning they now charged the men at the farm with no further attempt at to avoid killing the men. The adventurers did good and one bandit tried to flee. The adventurers shot him in the back and he also died as his comrades in crime. So all brigands dead the adventurers found the craftsman tied up inside the farm. So then they knew these where the brigands they where looking for.

New to the rules I didn't think any more of it then. But later it struck me if the should be so little consequence of killing fellow humans. Even if brigands and hostile they where not servants of the shadow. And then I read this tread. As I understand it correctly since this was the first time killing humans. And they killed them, even shot a guy in the back they should get shadow points for this. We stop not long after this so I think I will still give them 1 or 2 shadow points each depending on their corruption tests. The next time though I guess they will be more careful attacking humans, and I will only give shadow points if they do not show mercy or does similar bad actions. Does this sound like a correct application of the rules?

[Anachronist]

I wouldn't give them SPs now, because the rules say, that they have to be warned before. Still it is a SP worthy deed in my opinion. The fleeing brigand was no immediate threat any longer. He might have reconsidered his lifestyle. He might have learned, that this is not a proper way to live. The PCs do not know so they have to react in "In dubio pro reo".

In my Group we had an incident where a dwarf would intentionally cripple a prisoner to keep him from fleeing. I was so baffled I gave him a huge chunk of SPs. Without warning. I had to lift them of him in the next Session because it was my fault in the end.

I think the mechanic is to guide the players into tolkienesk behaviour, not to punish them. That in itself would be shadowy, I guess

[Deadmanwalking]

...The other side of that being, how often do PCs take prisoners? It's usually 'no quarter asked or given' that I've seen so far.

Eh, it's come up a few times in the game I'm in. That's only a few times in around 20 sessions or so, but it has come up.

New to the rules I didn't think any more of it then. But later it struck me if the should be so little consequence of killing fellow humans. Even if brigands and hostile they where not servants of the shadow. And then I read this tread. As I understand it correctly since this was the first time killing humans. And they killed them, even shot a guy in the back they should get shadow points for this. We stop not long after this so I think I will still give them 1 or 2 shadow points each depending on their corruption tests. The next time though I guess they will be more careful attacking humans, and I will only give shadow points if they do not show mercy or does similar bad actions. Does this sound like a correct application of the rules?

I'd be a bit more lenient, once they were attacked, I'd say that it shouldn't be a Misdeed to fight back. everyone should probably make a 'first killing' Corruption check to avoid gaining 1 Shadow via grief and guilt, but not for a Misdeed (though I'll note that this isn't in the official rules, just very appropriate...and likely shouldn't be applied to any who are experienced warriors or others who've killed previously).

The person who shot the fleeing foe should be the only one to receive automatic Shadow via the Misdeed mechanic. And should receive a couple of points for it, IMO. That wasn't necessary at all.

I agree with you on what to do in future instances, though.

[SirGalrim]

Everyone should probably make a 'first killing' Corruption check to avoid gaining 1 Shadow via grief and guilt, but not for a Misdeed (though I'll note that this isn't in the official rules, just very appropriate...and likely shouldn't be applied to any who are experienced warriors or others who've killed previously).

The person who shot the fleeing foe should be the only one to receive automatic Shadow via the Misdeed mechanic. And should receive a couple of points for it, IMO. That wasn't necessary at all.

Thank you for your input. (You also Anachronist.) I will do this. When they have left the area safely, setting up camp, its dark and silent and the thoughts come to them of their actions of the day. Ill let the two who shot get one automatic shadow point each (doesn't matter who one of them who actually did the kill). And everyone (including the bowmen) must succeed a Corruption test or gain one shadow point. Ill tell the players the reasoning and how it will work in the future.

[Glorelendil]

I'd also make sure they realize that Shadow points are not punishment. One goal is to avoid them, of course, but getting zero shadow points would be like learning to ski and never falling down: it would mean you haven't pushed yourself.

[Angelalex242]

Just because it's a first adventure doesn't mean it's a first kill.

Anyone with the Slayer calling has surely killed before the game started. Anyone with weapon 3 probably has too. I'd also bet all elves, of either Mirkwood or High have personally killed someone before simply due to lifespan.

[Otaku-sempai]

I go Rich's way for the servants of the Shadow (and other things, like Spiders) but allow (evil/Evil) Men to be unconscious instead. I figure heroes don't fight Men every day and would be more likely to pull their blows, in hopes of saving the Men instead of killing them.

The way I think of it is that downed opponents are generally dead or dying--if not from the wounds themselves then from shock induced by their injuries. They will die if left untreated unless the Heroes were intentionally engaging in non-lethal combat.

I agree that killing in the heat of combat should not automatically earn Shadow Points unless the Hero was foolish or unwise enough to start trouble that could have better been avoided. However, the chance for Shadow Points should remain if a reasonable possibility exists for the Heroes to suffer anquish or doubts about their actions.