Shadow points for self-defence killing

[Corvo]

In another Thread I came up with that idea:

“(...) [an] idea I'm mulling about is having Corruption rolls for acts of "legitimate" violence, as in fighting for self defense. Extreme, as I said, but I'm starting to think if it's the moment to question the standard "death is the easy solution" attitude of RPGs. No decision yet on the subject (...)”

I talked about this with my players, and they agreed: killing for self-defence isn't a Misdeed (automatic shadow point), yet it can be considered as a source of Anguish. It is a threshold in the life of the killer, and something that tell us something about that person: after all, there are people unable to kill even for self-defence. Killing someone is killing a piece of your soul.

So, following the guidelines of the sources of anguish (page 223 revised edition), “legitimately” killing some Man, Elf, Dwarf, Hobbit etc, is ground for a Corruption roll (1 Shadow Point).
Killing an Orc, Goblin or such is ground for a Corruption roll, but a Shadow point is gained ONLY if the test is failed AND the roll gets an Eye rune.

What do you think about it?

[Stormcrow]

Are you sure you want to roll a Corruption test with EVERY slain foe?

Are you sure you want to decide, for each foe knocked out of a fight, whether it is dead or not?

Does killing someone only mean landing the final blow?

[Seosaidh]

I kind of like it. However, it might be better to roll only on a per battle where a foe was killed sort of basis instead of a per-kill basis.

[Corvo]

Are you sure you want to roll a Corruption test with EVERY slain foe?

Are you sure you want to decide, for each foe knocked out of a fight, whether it is dead or not?

Does killing someone only mean landing the final blow?

The idea was to make just a roll at the end of the session, not one for each "event".

As in "what is a killing?", it's not just the final blow.

[Rocmistro]

I can sorta see the rationale for this, Corvo. We know that people can have a very hard time coping with the stress of combat, and seeing others dead or wounded, including the enemy and even when they themselves were not directly responsible for the killing. I suppose this is what PTSD is all about.

That being said, I just don't know if I want to see that in an adventure RPG. Maybe, as Seosaidh said (weird?) i would have it happen once per battle at it's conclusion. I think, if you're going to track the spiritual ruin that completely and that granularly, you might consider setting Hope higher. It seems to me that every violent struggle with orcs was not intended to risk a shadow point, so if you're going to tinker with the system like that, you might want to effectively increase the hope/shadow margin (and the only way I can presently think to do that is give people more hope).

EDIT: Sorry, Corvo, it seems you already covered some of this with a synonymous posting.

[Corvo]

I kind of like it. However, it might be better to roll only on a per battle where a foe was killed sort of basis instead of a per-kill basis.

Exactly. I was thinking about rolling at the end of the session

[Corvo]

I can sorta see the rationale for this, Corvo. We know that people can have a very hard time coping with the stress of combat, and seeing others dead or wounded, including the enemy and even when they themselves were not directly responsible for the killing. I suppose this is what PTSD is all about.

That being said, I just don't know if I want to see that in an adventure RPG. Maybe, as Seosaidh said (weird?) i would have it happen once per battle at it's conclusion. I think, if you're going to track the spiritual ruin that completely and that granularly, you might consider setting Hope higher. It seems to me that every violent struggle with orcs was not intended to risk a shadow point, so if you're going to tinker with the system like that, you might want to effectively increase the hope/shadow margin (and the only way I can presently think to do that is give people more hope).

I understand your points.
In my campaign the King's Men have just started their 13th adventure (year '52 of DoM), and their total Shadow is 0/0/0/2. They all have 10 Hope points. My players feel that the Shadow mechanic is lacking "fangs", so they agreed on this idea. And, truth to be told, they killed someone of the free peoples just twice in their career.

My doubts are more about rolling for orcs: but I think that, sometimes, you can see a glimpse of "humanity" even in their dying eyes...

[Rocmistro]

That's interesting 13 adventures and they are still almost in perfect shape.

One of my online adventures, one poor player (Beckett, I think), got a Permanent Shadow point on his first adventure. (much of that was LM hand-waiving to keep him from dying; a series of poor die rolls conspired to nearly see him dropped for a precarious height to his doom).

Yeah, if it needs more teeth, go for it. I definitely see it more with free-peoples than orcs. Even if it is a bit of "racism" (in the classic sense of the word), the fact is that when people see their enemies as less than human, they have an easier time coping with the stress and guilt of killing them.

[Otaku-sempai]

Well, I understand the reasoning. It is similar to losing a Sanity Point in Call of Cthulhu for witnessing or participating in a shocking event. I think that J.R.R. Tolkien, as someone who saw the horrors of trench warfare in the First World War, would understand as well.

I would agree to the idea of rolling for the over-all event, not for each individual death.

[Corvo]

(...)
Yeah, if it needs more teeth, go for it. I definitely see it more with free-peoples than orcs. Even if it is a bit of "racism" (in the classic sense of the word), the fact is that when people see their enemies as less than human, they have an easier time coping with the stress and guilt of killing them.

Yeah. The orc thing is where I have not yet taken a definitive stance.