The Defensive Stance "Problem"

[Glorelendil]

Somehow I must have not read "Wicked Cunning" on page 68 of Rivendell very carefully:

The creature must spend 1 point of Hate at the beginning of each combat round to activate this ability. If the ability is active, when the creature is attacked add to its Parry rating a value equal to the basic TN of the attacking hero’s chosen Combat Stance.

Good luck hitting THAT in Defensive Stance. Could easily become TN 30 with that business going on.

[Robin Smallburrow]

Does this make Initiative even more important? By which I mean if the fellowship acts first they can target this creature before it gets it's first action in Round 1? These are the sort of timing questions that could be crucial...

Robin S

[Murcushio]

I've seen that power, yeah.

My response as a player is "that's fine. There's plenty of other things to slay. If you're the last one standing, we'll wait you out, because you don't have unlimited Hate and in our defensive formation good luck hitting us back. Or, I'll shift into Forward, and my Barding buddy with Swordsman, a longsword, and a shield will defend my ass while murder you in your face."

But!

It becomes really interesting when you consider that combat isn't perfectly transparent. You sometimes don't even know what the hell you're fighting, let alone what powers it has, especially if the GM is making their own monsters and not just using the stuff from the published materiel. So you could stare in slack-jawed horror at the TN for hitting something using Wicked Cunning for a few rounds before going "waiiiiiiit a minute. I know what this is."

[Stilts]

Does this make Initiative even more important? By which I mean if the fellowship acts first they can target this creature before it gets it's first action in Round 1? These are the sort of timing questions that could be crucial...

Robin S

My understanding is that when something occurs at the beginning of a round, it occurs before any combatant can take any actions that turn, including the side holding the initiative. This is based on the definition of a "combat round" as a unit of time in which all combatants take one action, not just one side.

From the LM: "During each combat round, all combatants belonging to the side holding the initiative take their turn, followed by the other side."

Still, the Loremaster must make the decision for the enemy to use the ability at the start of the round, and the company can make an immediate response to that decision if they hold the initiative (if they even know what it's doing!).

[zedturtle]

Good catch EC! Between this and Deadly Elusiveness there seems to be an effort to at least address the problem.

[Seosaidh]

Good catch EC! Between this and Deadly Elusiveness there seems to be an effort to at least address the problem.

So I was wondering about Deadly Elusiveness. The wording is a bit odd. The rules state: "This creature can only be engaged in Close combat by a hero in Forward Stance."

I take this to mean that only a hero in Forward stance can attack and do damage. If it was truly just 'engage', then a hero could move to Forward, engage the creature, and then next round switch back to Open or Defensive (unless the creature engaged them first, then they could skip the moving to Forward stance). In other words, I'm taking the word 'engage' to refer to actually doing something (in this case actually performing close combat, i.e. attacking) instead of 'engage' in the sense of matching up creatures to adversaries in the combat rules.

Any thoughts? Is this how others have interpreted it?

[Stormcrow]

An adversary with Deadly Elusiveness active will be elusive. That is, if the Loremaster gets to do the pairing of combatants, the adversary with Deadly Elusiveness active will not choose a hero in Forward stance. However, I don't know what is supposed to happen if all heroes in close combat are in a Forward stance and the adversary does not have enough comrades to protect him in Rearward stance.

If the heroes get to do the pairing, a hero in Forward stance may not pair up with an adversary with Deadly Elusiveness active.

To resolve the apparent problem of being forced to pair the adversary with a hero in Forward stance, I can see a few possible solutions:

• Pair them up, but the hero attacks with a +2 TN penalty (as if he were in Open stance). The hero is still fighting in Forward stance, so the adversary attacks at the normal TN.
• Pair them up and force the hero into an Open stance.
• Pair them up and refund the adversary his Hate point.
• Declare the adversary an automatic noncombatant for the duration of this round.

[JoeArcher]

Two "solutions" for the issue. I just don't like them as they're just patches to cover the real problem.

[Glorelendil]

I should have mentioned the Elusiveness, too. I really like this one because of the narrative possibilities. E.g., a wraith or ghost with Hate abilities that don't require close combat, so the only way you can fight it is to run after it.

I have some other ideas, too, but I don't want to write them here in case any of my players are reading...

/maniacal_cackle

[zedturtle]

An adversary with Deadly Elusiveness active will be elusive. That is, if the Loremaster gets to do the pairing of combatants, the adversary with Deadly Elusiveness active will not choose a hero in Forward stance. However, I don't know what is supposed to happen if all heroes in close combat are in a Forward stance and the adversary does not have enough comrades to protect him in Rearward stance.

If the heroes get to do the pairing, a hero in Forward stance may not pair up with an adversary with Deadly Elusiveness active.

To resolve the apparent problem of being forced to pair the adversary with a hero in Forward stance, I can see a few possible solutions:

• Pair them up, but the hero attacks with a +2 TN penalty (as if he were in Open stance). The hero is still fighting in Forward stance, so the adversary attacks at the normal TN.
• Pair them up and force the hero into an Open stance.
• Pair them up and refund the adversary his Hate point.
• Declare the adversary an automatic noncombatant for the duration of this round.

I'm having a hard time parsing this.

Enemies with DE can only be attacked (in close combat) by heroes in Forward. Obviously, rearward heroes can still use missile weapons. Enemies don't choose stance, the only heroes that can choose the enemy with DE are those that are in Forward stance.

Am I missing something?