TfW Spoilers - An Origin Story for GK?

[Majestic]

There are ghosts (of men) aplenty in the literature. Besides the ones we've already addressed (like in the Paths of the Dead), the entire city of Osgiliath was known as "a city of ghosts".

As for the GK, one argument that could be made regarding him originally being an Elf would be the fact that we're told he "served for centuries" as Sauron's torturer and jailer. It's not clear at what point he went from being a physical being to a spirit, however.

If he was ever a corporeal entity, I have a hard time envisioning a living Elf serving Sauron in this way.

[Rieno]

I've been devising an epic story for him that takes place in Cuivinien. He was a lesser Maiar who lured some of the original elves away and took them to Utumno, tortured them and aided in creating the original orcs. Thus, he became the torturer at Dol Goldur.

[Arthadan]

1) I don't think anybody is planning to put Men ghosts into every single ruin. Just some of them. Say, as often as Tolkien himself did.

2) Nor do I think that anybody is arguing that ghosts are voluntarily refusing the summons of Mandos. They're not hanging out in Middle Earth because they want to. The passages you cite argue pretty persuasively that Men can't choose to refuse the summons...and I think all here would agree with you on that...but we're talking about spirits that are prevented from answering the summons.

1) Now we are talking! the catch is how often do ghosts pop up in Tolkien's works. We have the great example of the GK, he uses Men and Orcs bodies alike, but he probably does not belong to any of those races (and certainly not to both). Barrow-wights are not Men spirits, nor the corpse-candles in the Dead Marshes (evil spirit inhabiting corpses of Men, elves and Orcs alike, much like the GK himself).

2) I can accept that, spirits prevented from getting the Summon of Mandos as ghosts, maybe Wraiths (also called Undead), is more accurated. They don't die, but fade while they are alive keeping his presence in Arda by some evil and powerful object such the Nine Rings of Power or a Morgul Blade. Needles to say there are Nine of the first and not many of the second.

Also, I think it would be a mistake, if you'd choose to add Elven ghosts into ruins, to think that you did so with Tolkien's blessings. The quotes about haunting trees or springs suggest that the Houseless should rather be thought of as the 'true' source of folk-lore nature spirits -- not ghosts like the oathbreakers, et al.

The quote about the really corrupted ones, seeking to posses living bodies certainly points to something more agressive than folk-lore nature spirits, don't you think?

Please somebody post a single Tolkien quote stating that there are ghosts of Mannish stock other than those of the Paths of the Dead (not Mannish corpses inhabited by evil spirits of unknown nature) and I'll gladdly shut up.

[Glorelendil]

Why do you need more direct evidence than Paths of the Dead? That's a whole lotta ghosts, and proves its possible. Even if, like you suggest, it requires the curse of a king, Middle Earth has had plenty of kings with reasons to be pissed off.

Also note that Legolas, without knowing the whole story behind them, expressed no fear of the ghosts but also no surprise. Shouldn't he have been all, "Wait a sec...ghosts of men? Not possible."

Finally, is there a citation that suggests the corpses in the Dead Marshes are, as you say, inhabited by spirits that are not those of the original owners? Or is that your own conclusion? I find it suspiciously coincidental that there happen to be enough random spirits hanging around to occupy all those bodies...

Hope I'm not coming across confrontationally. I think this is interesting and fun.

[Indur Dawndeath]

I like this debate, it is just unfortunate that GK was defeated in my game before this thread existed.
That being said the man-ghost topic will be relevant later.
IMO there should be ghosts of men, and I think that the setting created by C7 supports that.
We have ghosts and references to ghosts several places in their material and that is how it should be.

To quote Tolkien,
I think this quote is in fact a direct threat and very real to Eowyn. The witch King will strip her of her body and prevent her from leaving ME. And I believe him, when he says it She will become a ghost or another form of spirit bound in eternal toment.

The Witch-king threatened to "bear [her] away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where [her] flesh shall be devoured, and [her] shriveled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."

Cheers

[Aeglosdir]

The quote about the really corrupted ones, seeking to posses living bodies certainly points to something more agressive than folk-lore nature spirits, don't you think?

No, there are some pretty scary beings in folk-lore, bent on drowning people, possessing them and so on. Read up on Russian folk-lore for instance.

To quote Tolkien,

The Witch-king threatened to "bear [her] away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where [her] flesh shall be devoured, and [her] shriveled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."

This seems a good description of what may have happened to the GK. Also note that the 'Necromancer' supposedly had some power over the dead (hence his name). So, the GK's body was destroyed (death, to most people), but his tortured fëa was forced to linger with nowhere to hide from to the Eye.

"They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife ... you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you..."

(Of course, luckily for Frodo, he was a Hobbit, and "it seems that Hobbits fade very reluctantly. I have known very strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter..." Is Gandalf's word for it good enough?)

[Glorelendil]

Good points, Aeglosdir.

So...I don't think we're all that far off from each other. I agree with Arthadan that ghosts of Men shouldn't be common. Partly, as another poster pointed out, because they lose their scary factor if adventurers encounter them too often.

But if we grant that their spirits cannot voluntarily remain, but rather must be forced to do so (or the owner turned into a wraith, which I'm assuming is something of the same nature*), we still have quite the list of examples of how this can happen:
1) Cursed. (Arthadan's criterion, that a King has to do the cursing, is his own interpretation, but we can grant him this point because we still have lots and lots of Kings to choose from.)
2) The 9 rings
3) A Morgul blade
4) Apparently the Nazgul, or at the very least the Witch King himself, can play games with the spirits of Men.

So it's not easy, but certainly it's not a case of "a Valar has to personally intervene" sort of thing, either (like Beren and Luthien returning.)

*If being turned into a wraith is not the same as the spirit staying behind as a ghost, then we're stuck on semantics. I'm perfectly happy to fill every ruin with wraiths rather than ghosts.

[Falenthal]

1) Cursed. (Arthadan's criterion, that a King has to do the cursing, is his own interpretation, but we can grant him this point because we still have lots and lots of Kings to choose from.)
2) The 9 rings
3) A Morgul blade
4) Apparently the Nazgul, or at the very least the Witch King himself, can play games with the spirits of Men.

Great summary!

Anything else could be added? Either from Tolkien or something original that comes up.

From points 2 and 3, I would sum them up and say "An object imbuded with the malice of the Shadow". Sauron was/is a Maia from Aulë, so that his creations and works could be innumerable. And also, there are the artifacts that Morgoth created himself, like the Chains of Thangorodrim. Objects, like names (and therefore Curses) hold power in Middle-Earth. Therefore the Barrow-Wights had to be expelled by exposing their objects. This means that, if the LM comes up with some powerful undead creature, he can also come up with some object that ties this spirit to earth.
Not an Undead scholar here, but this are some of the details I use for Undead in my games.

[Aeglosdir]

*If being turned into a wraith is not the same as the spirit staying behind as a ghost, then we're stuck on semantics. I'm perfectly happy to fill every ruin with wraiths rather than ghosts.

Yup. I think we all agree that in Tolkien terms, we have the fëa or spirit (soul, although Tolkien steers away from Christian terminology) and the hroa or body. The flesh can be devoured, peeled off, fade to nothingness, what have you, which in layman's terms means that it dies. There is nothing in Tolkien to support a distinction between ghosts and wraiths, although in game terms it might be fun to come up with some variety. They are just different names for houseless fëar who by some agency of the Enemy have been forced to stay behind in Middle-earth. A 'Morgul-knife' simply means a 'sorcery knife': a weapon from the sorcerer or Sauron; and Sauron may have made (and taught his servants, like the Nazgûl, how to make) quite a few 'morgul' weapons (and other 'morgul' objects) over the millennia.

So, plenty of room for other people who have been enslaved by 'Morgul-knives' to do the Dark Lord's bidding; actually ensnaring souls is kind of what he does. And of course this does not mean that there are ghosts or wraiths in every ruin in Middle-earth, just that there can be as many as the LM wishes. To me it seems like just another aspect of the tendency in games and stories of Powerful Stuff to turn up wherever the Heroes happen to go.

[Majestic]

Another possible wraith-like being we can look to is the Mouth of Sauron, who was most certainly a man, and was old enough that he had forgotten his own name. It is possible that he was another undead servant of the Shadow.