TfW Spoilers - An Origin Story for GK?

[Glorelendil]

Another possible wraith-like being we can look to is the Mouth of Sauron, who was most certainly a man, and was old enough that he had forgotten his own name. It is possible that he was another undead servant of the Shadow.

My preferred interpretation of him is that he's a Black Numenorean and thus still has long life, and he has "forgotten" his name in the way that you or I might forget a childhood nickname. That is, not truly forgotten but out of mind for a long time.

[Majestic]

Another possible wraith-like being we can look to is the Mouth of Sauron, who was most certainly a man, and was old enough that he had forgotten his own name. It is possible that he was another undead servant of the Shadow.

My preferred interpretation of him is that he's a Black Numenorean and thus still has long life, and he has "forgotten" his name in the way that you or I might forget a childhood nickname. That is, not truly forgotten but out of mind for a long time.

That's more how I view him as well. Either a Black Numenorean or a Southron/Easterling magician. But things are vague enough that it's possible he's some sort of undead being or wraith.

[Arthadan]

Quick answer, sorry for not quoting everybody.

Wraiths and ghost (and wights!) are not the same. Tolkien was a linguist, a great scolar in many old languages and crafter of his own. in other words, he was picky indeed and exact as few and he did make a differentiation.
- Wraiths are the most powerful, free to roam the world at will enslaved by evil powerful magic.
- Wights are evil spirits inhabiting dead bodies, unable to resist sun light and linked to the place where the dead body they inhabit lies.
- Ghosts are people who did something very wrong and were cursed by someone powerful enough for the Valar to listen. They remain cursed until the evil they made is made right.

Which leds me to the next point, I'm not saying *any* king has the power to curse someone so the cursed person will become a ghost. Isildur was not any king, he had Maiar, Edain and High Elf blood and played a definitive role in the History of Middle-earth. In other words, there are ghosts in Middle-earth but as exceptional as true Half-elves since both are exceptions to the natural order of things.

Now, we do know there are some lingering corrupted Elven spirits seeking to posses living bodies and we may accept that there are some lesser evil Maiar too weak to build bodies for themselves or who simply enjoy possesing bodies (not neccesarily, mind you). The first we know is true as a fact, the second does not go against the "natural order of things" in Middle-earth. So, when I asked for a quote saying that there are any other ghosts other than the Oathbreakers whose spirits are of Mannish stock is because I find it quite unlikely.

We can also speak also about the difference between Sorcery and Necromancy, the exact effects of possesion and what is the wraith-world, all with quotes. As I may have metioned already, I was working on a fan-made Necromancy supplement and I did some research on these subjects.

[Glorelendil]

Which leds me to the next point, I'm not saying *any* king has the power to curse someone so the cursed person will become a ghost. Isildur was not any king, he had Maiar, Edain and High Elf blood and played a definitive role in the History of Middle-earth.

Well I didn't mean any king, either. But there are still dozens to choose from between Elendil and Aragorn. All of them have the blood of which ye speaketh. (God I hope this doesn't devolve into a debate about parts per million...)

In other words, there are ghosts in Middle-earth but as exceptional as true Half-elves since both are exceptions to the natural order of things.

I don't think anybody is arguing with you that they are rare. But as "exceptional" as Half-elves? I dunno...what will Aragorn and Arwen's children be? (And if you argue that they won't be true Half-elves because Arwen has chosen mortality, I'll counter that Aragorn has the blood of kings so he can do that. And you'll respond, no, that doesn't lie within his power, that requires the intervention of the Vala. And I'll respond that cursing men so that they become ghosts is within his power, because Elendil did it, and therefore Half-elves are 'more exceptional' than Mannish Ghosts. Q.E.F.D.)

So, when I asked for a quote saying that there are any other ghosts other than the Oathbreakers whose spirits are of Mannish stock is because I find it quite unlikely.

Well if you specifically mean ghosts and not other forms of undead spirits then I can't think of any. But the wraiths are examples of men's spirits lingering rather than going to Mandos' halls, which was what I thought you were asking for evidence of.

I also, by the way, can't name any other daggers or shortswords forged in Gondolin other than Sting. But the existence of Sting proves that the Noldor sometimes made small blades, so we can assume/guess that there were more. There might not have been, but a fan developer could certainly add some without breaking canon.

Tolkien's world took place over entire continents over thousands of years, of which we only have a tiny, tiny handful of stories. And ghosts of men play a prominent role in one of those stories.

Rare? Sure. Unique....no.

[Aeglosdir]

Well if you specifically mean ghosts and not other forms of undead spirits then I can't think of any. But the wraiths are examples of men's spirits lingering rather than going to Mandos' halls, which was what I thought you were asking for evidence of.

And Tolkien never said that in his legendarium there is a difference between 'ghosts' and 'wraiths' in this regard.

Good luck to Arthadan with his fan sub-creations in Tolkien's world; it is a very popular genre.

[zedturtle]

If we're going to get lingustical, wight just means living thing, especially a person or other sapient. A Barrow-wight is just a person living in a barrow. We have to jettison the forty years of fantasy RPG influence when we consider what Tolkien might have been thinking about in the 1950s when he wrote the passage.

As for Isilidur having the power to curse the men of Dunharrow, I think it is of two parts: the oath that they broke is as important (and maybe more important) than Isilidur's cursing of them for breaking it. Oaths are powerful stuff:

They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilúvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not ..... For so sworn, good or evil, an oath may not be broken, and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.

Seems to indicate that oaths can break the "natural cycle" of the world.

[Glorelendil]

Ooh...Zedturtle rolls an extraordinary success on Lore.

[Majestic]

So Arthadan, if not a Mannish ghost (or wraith), what do you recommend, that would still fit with Professor Tolkien's views of Middle-earth (as you understand them)?

[Aeglosdir]

If we're going to get lingustical, wight just means living thing, especially a person or other sapient. A Barrow-wight is just a person living in a barrow.

Its root meaning, yes ... 'a sense obsolete after the 16th century'. Another sense, 'which has survived till recent times', was supernatural being in general, or in particular ghost or demon. Used in this sense by Morris, and 'of course' by Tolkien. Quotes from The Ring of Words.

Its kind of amusing being informed that Tolkien was a linguist, having worked in the field for some twenty years myself.

[zedturtle]

I think obsolete is too strong a word, considering Irving called Ichabod Crane a wight. And Tolkien was intentionally reaching out for archaic words, always trying to use words with Old English roots instead of Latin ones if possible.

That said, there's certainly a reason Tolkien called it a barrow-wight and not a barrow-man. What are your thoughts on the Carn Dum question? Where did those memories come from?

And I realize that none of this is news to you, but there is always something new to discover; a reader of the thread might not know. And, of course, this is a wide ranging discussion, with a lot of people participating.