How do Attercops fight?

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modsr
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How do Attercops fight?

Post by modsr » Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:17 pm

Just checking as I'll be running Don't Leave the Path tomorrow:

The Attercops' main form of attack is Ensnare, right? Narratively, they're probably not weaving web around the character in the spot, I see it more like they try to trip and shove the characters into their webs and also just jump and grab a character. When one hits, it doesn't do damage at all, right? And it doesn't get to attack with its sting on the same round? Instead, the character can try to shake the spider off (Athletics) or attack normally. His Parry is halved and he cannot change stance. Then, when it's the Attecops turn again, if it hasn't been killed or thrown off with Athletics, it can use its Sting. And it makes a normal attack with it (not using Poison), only if the attacking character rolled an Eye does it use the called shot (Poison)?

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. Thanks!

zedturtle
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Re: How do Attercops fight?

Post by zedturtle » Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:37 pm

The Extended Example of combat (RE 181) uses Attercops as opponents, from reading that and the relevant rules in Adversaries it would seem that an Attercop can Ensare, then spend Hate to Seize Victim and immediately Sting. Or it can Ensnare and then Sting on the next round.
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Robin Smallburrow
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Re: How do Attercops fight?

Post by Robin Smallburrow » Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:16 am

modsr

The advice I give to any LM's in running Advesaries is to 'think as them - what are they after, why are they attacking the PC's?"

OK, so let's look at the Attercops specifically as Adversaries: they have Movement 3 as a favoured skill, two special attacks -Ensnare & Sting (both favoured!!), plus two special abilities, Great Leap (which means they can target anybody including Rearward) and Sieze Victim (this means that two Attercops can attack one target, with one using Sieze Victim to 'pin down' the victim for the other). AND they can use Sting immediately following a successful Ensnare attack!

And don't forget the description either from p.241

" Many-eyed and many-legged, Attercops are giant spiders reaching up to the size of boars. They are crafty predators who attack unwary victims, first tying them up with their spider-thread and then poisoning them. While a single Attercop does not pose a significant threat to any but a less-experienced adventurer, a roused spider-colony can be a challenge even for a veteran company of heroes."

Thus when I read this I realised that these guys like to Surprise Ambush if possible (using the trees of Mirkwood), and if there are enough of them they prefer to attack two to each 'target' so one Attercop can use Sieze Victim to make it easier for the other Attercop to Ensnare and Sting (On the same round!!)

With a successful ambush a bunch of Attercops is a match for even experienced adventurers.

Always run adversaries to the best of their abilities if possible is my advice!!

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Majestic
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Re: How do Attercops fight?

Post by Majestic » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:13 pm

It sounds like my players were pretty wise to avoid waking the sleeping Attercops when we just played through "Don't Leave the Path" two weeks ago! :)

Before I ran it, I researched how big boars could get, just to have an idea how big Attercops could be. It was pretty amazing to see that they can reach 400 (or even supposedly
Tale of Years for a second, lower-level group (in the same campaign).

Corvo
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Re: How do Attercops fight?

Post by Corvo » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:11 pm

By the way, the 1st edition manual got this rule under the spider's weapons:

*If the Ensnare roll is successful and produces a great or extraordinary success, the spider immediately attacks its victim using its sting.

Apparently this was mistakenly left out from 2nd edition (the ensnare entry still got the asterisk * that used to lead to that rule)

helghast
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Re: How do Attercops fight?

Post by helghast » Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:29 am

I don`t think it was mistakenly left out.

Because the "seize victim" power on page 234 allows an adversary the following:

"The seizing creature cannot attack with its main weapon
as long as it is seizing the target (but can freely use a
secondary attack if it possesses one)."

So the section quoted in the 1Edition was already redundant, because every time the creature hits with its ensare attack it uses the seize victim power and then automatically has the opportunity to attack freely with its sting (secondary weapon)

I am correct on this one ?

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Re: How do Attercops fight?

Post by Hermes Serpent » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:06 am

It seems to me that the Seize victim text is only telling you that the attacker may not use the primary attack while a target is seized but may use the secondary attack. It doesn't say that the secondary attack is automatically made after Seize victim is made by spending a point of Hope.

It goes like
Round One Attack with Ensnare and if successful use Hope to Seize victim.
Round Two Attack Seized victim with sting.

It used to go
Round One Attack with Ensnare and use Hope to Seize Victim on a successful attack, if it's a Great or Extraordinary success use Sting automatically.
Round Two Attack with Sting again as the target is already Ensnared/Seized.
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Seosaidh
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Re: How do Attercops fight?

Post by Seosaidh » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:48 pm

Hermes Serpent wrote:It seems to me that the Seize victim text is only telling you that the attacker may not use the primary attack while a target is seized but may use the secondary attack. It doesn't say that the secondary attack is automatically made after Seize victim is made by spending a point of Hope.

It goes like
Round One Attack with Ensnare and if successful use Hope to Seize victim.
Round Two Attack Seized victim with sting.

It used to go
Round One Attack with Ensnare and use Hope to Seize Victim on a successful attack, if it's a Great or Extraordinary success use Sting automatically.
Round Two Attack with Sting again as the target is already Ensnared/Seized.
I'm pretty sure that an adversary doesn't need to spend Hate to employ Seize Victim. The text reads:
The One Ring Roleplaying Game Hardcover wrote:If the creature's main form of attack has hit, the creature may hold on to the target to reduce the mobility of the victim...
However, I do agree that the rules do not state that every creature has the opportunity to perform a second attack after Seizing Victim (whether on a regular, great, or extraordinary success). I do remember that the Attercop omission was mentioned somewhere on the forums, and that it was, in fact, a mistaken omission.

EDIT: I found the post, its under the 'About Spiders' thread. It also just occurred to me that you might have meant that Attercops need to spend a point of hate in order to utilize the Sting attack after a great/extraordinary success with Ensnare. I can't comment on that, since I don't have the original rulebook.
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Hermes Serpent
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Re: How do Attercops fight?

Post by Hermes Serpent » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:03 pm

Mea Culpa. not only was I using Hope rather than Hate in my haste to post before rushing off elsewhere I misused it.

Attercops have Ensnare and Sting as primary and secondary attacks respectively with Great leap and Seize Victim as Special Abilities. Great Leap uses Hate to make the ability work, Seize victim doesn't as it's a result of using Ensnare successfully

The Attercops attack using Ensnare is 2D+3 and leaves a successfully attacked target covered in sticky threads.
Originally a great or extraordinary success allowed the Attercop to Sting on the same turn as the Ensnare. This seems to have been removed in the RE (although the removal is not listed in the revisions document).
After being Seized a target is unable to change stance and its Parry is halved.
Seize victim allows the Attercop to use it's Sting (2D+3) after a successful Ensnare attack (next round in the RE, same round if scoring any tengwars in the OE).
An Edge (10+) causes the Stung victim to suffer a Piercing Blow needing a Protection test.
If a PC rolls an Eye on a failed attack the Attercop automatically makes a Called Shot. If the Attercop succeeds in his next Sting attack and the Attercop scores a success with a tengwar the character will be poisoned with Spider Poison.

A character that is Ensnared may use their Unarmed skill to cut themselves free with their knife (Tales p16 - Cutting through the web requires a successful Dagger test.). Being caught in a web counts as being
moderately hindered as both defender and attacker (Tales p37)
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zedturtle
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Re: How do Attercops fight?

Post by zedturtle » Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:24 pm

The Extended Example of Combat still uses the immediate Sting on a Great or Extraordinary Ensnare, so it's pretty obvious (IMO) that the monster entry has an editing error and should have the text it had in the original rules.
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