Cursed items vs. Cursed Treasure

[Falenthal]

After reading once and again the Magical Treasure chapter from Rivendell, I still can't figure out what the mechanics are for cursed treasures.

Let me explain what I (mis)understand:

1) I, as a LM, decide the players will find a certain hoard during the next adventure.
2) The rules say that I must decide if the hoard will be cursed or not. There's no rule to determine by rolling if the treasure itself is cursed, right?
3) I don't see anywhere that, if the heroes plunder from a cursed treasure, they have to roll for Corruption.
4) Here comes my biggest confusion (along point 3): If the player rolls an Eye when looking for Treasure, he gets a magical object that has been marred by the Shadow -> Roll for Corruption as per the table on page 86.

BUT

5) On page 100, below Cursed Items, there's a rule introduced that helps the LM determine if an object is cursed or not, by rolling a number of times the Feat dice. But didn't we say in point 4 that items are cursed if found with an Eye? Then, what do we need this rule for?

So, first question:
Just plundering treasure (even if no magical object is found) from a Cursed Treasure does not trigger a Corruption Test?
My own hypothesis is that Treasures cannot be Cursed, only individual objects.

And second:
What's the use of the table and rule from page 100 of Rivendell?

[Valarian]

The hoard itself may be a corrupting influence, even if the items within it aren't. An example is the treasure hoard of the Marsh Dwellers in The Marsh Bell.

The treasure is built on the waylaying of travellers in the marsh, taking their stuff and eating the traveller. The treasure is cursed as a result and requires a corruption roll when plundered. After this, the treasure items of coins, gems and such don't have any further corrupting influence.

If the treasure contained a cursed item, that would have a secondary corrupting influence. Possibly an ongoing one.

[Falenthal]

The hoard itself may be a corrupting influence, even if the items within it aren't. An example is the treasure hoard of the Marsh Dwellers in The Marsh Bell.

But can we find any rule regarding corruption from treasure hoards?
I also thought of the Marsh Bell, but it's corruption test isn't reflected anywhere in the rules.
The MB was written before the Rivendell rules were, but the Rivendell rules don't reflect (at least to my eyes) that some hoards are tainted to players that plunder them.

If the treasure contained a cursed item, that would have a secondary corrupting influence. Possibly an ongoing one.

I think you make a point here that helps clarify my mess:
When the player rolls an Eye when looking for treasure, he has to make a Corruption test because the object he found is marred by the Shadow, but that doesn't mean that the object is cursed.

A cursed object can only be found in marred Treasures (rolling an Eye), but not all marred Treasures contain cursed objects.

In fact, it is possible that a group who's searching in the same hoard one of them rolls an Eye and has to make a Corruption test, while another rolls a Gandalf and finds a magical treasure without complications. The same hoard might end up being Shadow-tainted for one player, and free of Shadow for another.

Am I getting it right?

[Hermes Serpent]

I believe so. I had a company return to the Marsh Dwellers hoard and plunder it. The three player characters rolled Gandalf, Gandalf and then an Eye so they got three objects one of which was marred and cost a Shadow point for the unlucky character.

[Falenthal]

Oh my! Look what I just found a leaf before where I started reading...

Magical Treasure Rolls

"I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was
meant to find the Ring."

The rules for Hoards make a bag of coins offered by a rich
merchant as payment for some service very different from
a pile of old gold found in a Goblin warren – both finds
are given a Treasure rating, but only a Hoard allows for
Magical Treasure rolls.

• As a general rule, any source of Treasure encountered
by a company when exploring caverns, lairs and
old ruins qualifies as a Hoard, and thus allows
companions to make Magical Treasure rolls.

Naturally, old Treasure found in the coffers of an Elf-lord
or Dwarven chieftain may qualify as coming from a Hoard
as well; in that case, what is really important is how the
companions are coming about it, as theft is a Misdeed,
causing an automatic Shadow gain.

Tainted Treasure

In the core rules for The One Ring, the Tainted Treasure
table on page 225 indicates the amount of Shadow gained
by heroes who stumble upon gold or other precious items
that are bearing the taint of corruption.

While normally it is the Loremaster’s duty to decide whether
a source of Treasure requires all companions to pass a
Corruption test or not, in the case of a Hoard a player must
make a Corruption test only if he rolls an Eye on the Feat
die while making a Magical Treasure roll (see overleaf).

I had missed the new distinciton between Treasure and Hoard.
In fact, the gold piles from the Marsh Bell is described as a Hoard, but acts as a Treasure.

[Dunkelbrink]

In fact, the gold piles from the Marsh Bell is described as a Hoard, but acts as a Treasure.

But the treasure of the Marsh dwellers is a perfect example of a Hoard, isn't it? "As a general rule, any source of Treasure encountered by a company when exploring caverns, lairs and old ruins qualifies as a Hoard, and thus allows companions to make Magical Treasure roll"s.

Just because the adventure was written before Rivendell doesn't mean we can't change the category of thes piles of gold, does it? I would, and I did include the Marsh dwellers' treasure in my list of possible Hoards in Wilderland a while ago (published on the forums). A possibility of magic items would be a suitable reward for a Company that returns a few years later to drive out the dwellers if you ask me.

[Falenthal]

But the treasure of the Marsh dwellers is a perfect example of a Hoard, isn't it? "As a general rule, any source of Treasure encountered by a company when exploring caverns, lairs and old ruins qualifies as a Hoard, and thus allows companions to make Magical Treasure roll"s.

Just because the adventure was written before Rivendell doesn't mean we can't change the category of thes piles of gold, does it? I would, and I did include the Marsh dwellers' treasure in my list of possible Hoards in Wilderland a while ago (published on the forums). A possibility of magic items would be a suitable reward for a Company that returns a few years later to drive out the dwellers if you ask me.

Agreed. I'm only saying that, with the new rules from Rivendell, we couldn't make everyone roll for Corruption just for seeing the piles of gold. They should dig in it looking for magical objects and obtain an Eye to be forced a Corruption test.
If we make all of the group roll for Corruption just by seeing it, then it's a Treasure (not a Hoard) and can't contain Magical Objects (no rolls allowed).

Of course, as LMs we can make them all roll for Corruption, then roll for Magical Objects, and Corrupt them again if they roll an Eye . To Utumno with the Treasure/Hoard distinction!!

In fact, I would naturally consider any Treasure in the Barrow Downs to be tainted, but I'd also allow for Magical Treasure rolls. As I understand it, that's against the rules.

[beckett]

After reading once and again the Magical Treasure chapter from Rivendell, I still can't figure out what the mechanics are for cursed treasures.

Let me explain what I (mis)understand:

1) I, as a LM, decide the players will find a certain hoard during the next adventure.
2) The rules say that I must decide if the hoard will be cursed or not. There's no rule to determine by rolling if the treasure itself is cursed, right?
3) I don't see anywhere that, if the heroes plunder from a cursed treasure, they have to roll for Corruption.
4) Here comes my biggest confusion (along point 3): If the player rolls an Eye when looking for Treasure, he gets a magical object that has been marred by the Shadow -> Roll for Corruption as per the table on page 86.

BUT

5) On page 100, below Cursed Items, there's a rule introduced that helps the LM determine if an object is cursed or not, by rolling a number of times the Feat dice. But didn't we say in point 4 that items are cursed if found with an Eye? Then, what do we need this rule for?

So, first question:
Just plundering treasure (even if no magical object is found) from a Cursed Treasure does not trigger a Corruption Test?
My own hypothesis is that Treasures cannot be Cursed, only individual objects.

And second:
What's the use of the table and rule from page 100 of Rivendell?

To answer your question from #2, Yes there is a roll. From page 86 of Rivendell:

All companions who choose to inspect a Hoard for magical treasure start by rolling a single Feat die: if the Feat die gives a numerical result, the companion hasn’t found anything possessing exceptional qualities, and the companion receives simply his share of Treasure points. If the Feat die rolls a Gandalf or an EYE instead, the companion has found something out of the ordinary!

• On a Gandalf result, the companion has uncovered a magical object, unmarred by any complications.
• On an EYE, the object found is indeed magical, but it has been marred by having been left for too long in the shadows. The companion must immediately pass a Corruption test or else gain a number of Shadow points as per the Tainted Treasure table below (see also Cursed Items, on page 100).

Then on Page 100 of Rivendell:

If a companion has uncovered Magical Treasure by rolling an EYE, the Loremaster may take the chance to introduce a Curse, in addition to the mandatory Corruption test.

A cursed item does not differ from an unmarred one, and it is attributed to the companion exactly in the same way. The Loremaster simply proceeds to design the Curse that is laid upon it, either by choosing a Curse he designed previously for his own campaign, or by creating it on the spot using the rules below.

If the Loremaster isn’t sure and needs a hard and fast rule to determine whether an object is indeed cursed, he can roll a Feat die and consult the table below.

So, basically, if the player rolled an EYE on his/her magical treasure roll, the LM can decide if the item is cursed or not. If the LM is not sure, there is a table the LM can use to determine if the item is indeed cursed.

The easy, quick answer is to say, if the player rolls an eye the item is cursed. Done. Keep the game moving. But if for reasons of story or location, the LM isn't really sure, check the table on page 100.

In my game, the Company was recently in a cave under the Mountains of Mirkwood hunting the werewolf and stumbled upon a treasure hoard. The Dwarf rolled an EYE. So he found something... with complications. His second roll determined it was a Wondrous Artefact. I checked my Magical Treasure index and decided that he found a gold ring with a Blessing to Search. Since he rolled an EYE, I decided on the spot that the ring was cursed. Checking my notes for potential curses, I used Curse of Weakness. So while the Dwarf wears the ring he displays the worse flaw connected with his Shadow Weakness. In the Dwarf’s case, this is Thieving (Dragon-sickness). It's been very entertaining ever since!

Hope that is helpful!

[Dunkelbrink]

But the treasure of the Marsh dwellers is a perfect example of a Hoard, isn't it? "As a general rule, any source of Treasure encountered by a company when exploring caverns, lairs and old ruins qualifies as a Hoard, and thus allows companions to make Magical Treasure roll"s.

Just because the adventure was written before Rivendell doesn't mean we can't change the category of thes piles of gold, does it? I would, and I did include the Marsh dwellers' treasure in my list of possible Hoards in Wilderland a while ago (published on the forums). A possibility of magic items would be a suitable reward for a Company that returns a few years later to drive out the dwellers if you ask me.

Agreed. I'm only saying that, with the new rules from Rivendell, we couldn't make everyone roll for Corruption just for seeing the piles of gold. They should dig in it looking for magical objects and obtain an Eye to be forced a Corruption test.
If we make all of the group roll for Corruption just by seeing it, then it's a Treasure (not a Hoard) and can't contain Magical Objects (no rolls allowed).

Of course, as LMs we can make them all roll for Corruption, then roll for Magical Objects, and Corrupt them again if they roll an Eye . To Utumno with the Treasure/Hoard distinction!!

In fact, I would naturally consider any Treasure in the Barrow Downs to be tainted, but I'd also allow for Magical Treasure rolls. As I understand it, that's against the rules.

Interesting find. I read the RAW as "Treasure" being the actual worth of goods, not really an alternative "source", instead of a Hoard for example. The term is "Treasure", not "a Treasure".

That said, I agree with your intepretation of the RAW. It feels a bit weird that a Hoard in an ancient Barrow would be less dangerous than a normal pile of gold (i.e. a source of Treasure that does not qualify as a Hoard), since you need to roll an Eye to potentially suffer Shadow. I will probably personally rule that a Hoard might require a Corruption test from the whole Company (the Treasure bearing the taint of corruption) and additional corruption test for the hero who rolls an Eye. I like Corruption rolls, and taking gold and magical items from a Barrow should reely feel dangerous.

[Arkat]

The way I read it, treasure in TOR is just another word for «money» or «wealth». So a character has “treasure” that he can spend on stuff and a npc can have a chest of “treasure” under his bed. A hoard on the other hand is what treasure means in everyday speech: An undetermined source of wealth and artifacts found or uncovered. This is treasure in the sense of the common phrase “pirate treasure”. And this also solves the question of corruption for me. My savings (my treasure rating) or the savings of a merchant (his treasure rating) generally can’t be corrupt. It is just a sack of silver tucked away for lean times. But a hoard that has been sitting in a troll cave for hundreds of years might just be. And if it is corrupt, just seeing it will force you to make a corruption test (Like the hoard in the marsh bell or Smaugs hoard in Erebor). If you happen to roll an Eye when inspecting this hoard (or any other hoard, corrupted or not) you might find an item that will force you to make another corruption test. So the way I understand it, hoards may or may not contain corrupted treasure (wealth) and they may or may not contain items that are corrupted.