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Bluejay raises a good point: you probably don't want to add Keen to a bow or Spear, because at higher skill levels you'll be using Called Shot more often. I'll add that to the document.

Right, thanks.

The thing one has to realize when optimizing in TOR is to eliminate any redundancy or waste, there is no room for it.

You only get 5 picks for gear and 5 picks for talents (for lack of better words). You really have to make them count, and if there is not much room for overlap or redundancy.

On the subject of "Builds" (i.e. "crit fishing" or "minion clearing" or whatever) I will say that I'm not sure you can prove that there is any statistical value to specialization, and if anything I would argue that diminishing returns suggests you go for balance rather than specialize. Especially in the absence of prior knowledge about what your LM will throw at you. But at the same time it's just plain fun to be really good at something so I have no objection to it.

Maybe I should add a section on "Specializations" that makes the above point, but then spells out how to go about it anyway.

Glorelendil wrote:Bluejay raises a good point: you probably don't want to add Keen to a bow or Spear, because at higher skill levels you'll be using Called Shot more often. I'll add that to the document.

That's only assuming you are going to actually put XP into getting weapon skill to 5 or 6. In many cases, Weapon skill 3 to 4 will suffice. You can still reliably hit in defensive stance at WS 4, but there are many builds that won't even require that.

My elf hero, Amroth, for example, I built for all purpose warfare. He has high awe and battle to drain hate, good song for rallying comrades. He carries a Great Shield and I will reinforce it, despite his wits of 8 (high elf) when the time comes, as well as a lesser ring of power for wits.

He will never (well, practically speaking) see his spear weapon skill higher than 3, because I don't need it. He'll spend a lot of time in forward and open stance to have opportunities for intimidate foe and rally comrades, and skill 3 will reliably hit in either of those stances, espeically once I layer-on a +1/+2 bonus from artificer of eregion.

Glorelendil wrote:On the subject of "Builds" (i.e. "crit fishing" or "minion clearing" or whatever) I will say that I'm not sure you can prove that there is any statistical value to specialization, and if anything I would argue that diminishing returns suggests you go for balance rather than specialize. Especially in the absence of prior knowledge about what your LM will throw at you. But at the same time it's just plain fun to be really good at something so I have no objection to it.

Maybe I should add a section on "Specializations" that makes the above point, but then spells out how to go about it anyway.

Generally speaking in most RPG's I would agree with you. But I think the compressed scale of TOR and the combination of the Feat Die make generalists very viable,maybe moreso than specialists. The same holds true for Savage Worlds with the "wild die". I don't tihnk that's accidental either, in this game, as Francesco wanted heroes to appear more well-rounded.

In fact as I think back on it, that might be where some of my optimization discussion comes from; I think right off the bat that generalists in TOR are more optimized builds than specialists.

But...but...Amroth has a Body score of 6! Don't you want more Tengwars?

But, yeah, if you're going to leave it at 3 then you probably want to use Forward stance a lot, which means you'll get more benefit from Parry.

I guess the other advantage to never raising it is that you won't have to re-enchant it.

EDIT: Also remember that increasing parry reduces endurance loss more than it reduces Pierce frequency, because as you increase the TN to hit you increase the % of hits with high Feat die rolls. Get the TN high enough and all hits will be Pierces. Yet another one of those elegant rheostats Francesco built into the game: as Parry goes up, Protection becomes relatively more valuable.

Rocmistro wrote:

Glorelendil wrote:On the subject of "Builds" (i.e. "crit fishing" or "minion clearing" or whatever) I will say that I'm not sure you can prove that there is any statistical value to specialization, and if anything I would argue that diminishing returns suggests you go for balance rather than specialize. Especially in the absence of prior knowledge about what your LM will throw at you. But at the same time it's just plain fun to be really good at something so I have no objection to it.

Maybe I should add a section on "Specializations" that makes the above point, but then spells out how to go about it anyway.

Generally speaking in most RPG's I would agree with you. But I think the compressed scale of TOR and the combination of the Feat Die make generalists very viable,maybe moreso than specialists. The same holds true for Savage Worlds with the "wild die". I don't tihnk that's accidental either, in this game, as Francesco wanted heroes to appear more well-rounded.

In fact as I think back on it, that might be where some of my optimization discussion comes from; I think right off the bat that generalists in TOR are more optimized builds than specialists.

Wait...I think we're saying the same thing: in TOR generalists are more optimized than specialists.

Glorelendil wrote:But...but...Amroth has a Body score of 6! Don't you want more Tengwars?

But, yeah, if you're going to leave it at 3 then you probably want to use Forward stance a lot, which means you'll get more benefit from Parry.

I guess the other advantage to never raising it is that you won't have to re-enchant it.

1. I would love more Tengwars! But it's all about decision making, and I labored hard on Vengeful Kin (zedturtle will tell you it took me nearly 4 months to decide on the final background package for my high elf. In truth I like the stat array of the Guardian of Imladris better, but Vengeful Kin fit the character concept better and gave me favored Battle which I wanted more than Favored Lore.)

2. Re-enchanting; yep! It's all part of character optimization, and even the decision as to how you spend your undertakings plays a roll in it.

Elfcrusher & ZT, where the hell are you guys, I want you to weigh in on this convo!

Rocmistro wrote:
Elfcrusher & ZT, where the hell are you guys,

OMG somebody rolled Eye on his Awareness test.

This is an excellent discussion guys! Good build there for Amroth, Rocmistro!

Of course a lot of this depends on how the team operates together.

Recently we've had some battles where the bad guys have had such high weapon skills that honestly trying to consistently avoid them was just thrown out the window (3d+10, 4d+8, 4d+9) and that has encouraged a different tactic from the team. In these cases they moved to one or two regularly using Rally Comrades and a rotating position of a character in Defensive using Protect Companion on the most likely target of attacks.