Balancing Virtues and Rewards

[bluejay]

Being super-pedantic here, technically the rules for succeeding with a Called Shot are:

A called shot hits only when the roll matches or beats the Target Number set for the attack AND the player obtains at least one Tengwar icon on his rolled Success dice.

Note that upgrading a regular success to a great (or even extraordinary) success does not affect the number of Tengwar icons you rolled. I know this seems picky but it feels like it was worded like that for a reason.

Of course that would a good way to improve the Bowmen of the Guild virtue I just don't believe it's the case for the RAW.

EDIT: yes and Glorelendil is absolutely right, it wouldn't have been a valid success in the first place because you need to have actually succeeded in a Called Shot otherwise you miss.

[Morgoth]

No, upon further reflection I don't think it's valid:

1) First, a Called Shot requires a Tengwar icon, not a Great Success.
2) Second, if there is no Tengwar then it's not a successful attack, and Bowman of the Guild requires you to start with at least a normal success.

Too bad (sort of) because that would have made it better than King's Blade or Stinging Arrow: higher Injury rating and increased damage.

I could be wrong, but I think Tengwars and Great Success are used interchangeably. Either that, or a "Great Success" is not defined in the book. But either way, I don't think your second point is correct.

To succeed in a roll, a player must compare his total result to the Target Number set by the Loremaster: if it is equal or greater, then the attempt is successful

If the roll result doesn’t produce any Tengwar icons, the attack misses altogether (even if the total result matches or beats the attack TN).

If the attack roll beats the TN, it's a success. Nothing in Called Shot suggests otherwise. A success is not the same as the attack hitting. Not hitting isn't the same as a failure. However, if your first point is correct, it makes your second point moot either way.

[bluejay]

Morgoth I think you actually highlighted the critical line yourself here.

Great successes are defined early in the book and they are not used interchangeably with Tengwars afterwards. In fact the Called Shot rules seem quite specific in mentioning Tengwars and not great/extraordinary successes (say when compared with the rules for King's Blade).

As I say the line which cannot be surmounted (for me at least) is:

If the roll result doesn’t produce any Tengwar icons, the attack misses altogether (even if the total result matches or beats the attack TN).

So no matter what, the attack does NOT produce Tengwar icons and misses. Being upgraded to a great/extraordinary success does not suddenly add Tengwar icons to the roll.

Obviously someone can overrule this officially (and everyone's entitled to use the rule however they wish to interpret it) but by the wording of the RAW it cannot affect Called Shots (other than making great successes into extraordinary successes).

[Corvo]

Bowman of the Guide weak? Seriously? It's one of the only ways (the other being Stinging Arrow) to automatically inflict a piercing blow. Attempt a called shot, and even if you don't get a great success, then just spend a point of hope... with extra damage to boot. The hope is pricey, but it's great for bosses. The bonus to standing is just gravy.

Oh that's interesting. I didn't even think of that use for upgrading a success.

Let me ponder that.

Ouch, I feel so misunderstood

....I have never tried it in a game, but I was wary of the combo value with called shot (1 extra success=wounding hit)

[Falenthal]

About Tengwars being the same as degrees of success, I don't have an absolute answer, but I think they're not the same.

In tha case of skill checks, a Tengwar is used as one of many ways of achieving a higher degree of success, but it's not the only one. Some virtues achieve the same without adding Tengwars to the roll. In other words, your roll and your degree of success are not the same.

Also, with the Feat Dice happens more or less the same: rolling a Sauron is not equal to zero. Sometimes it means 0, but sometimes it means Hazard, and sometimes it means Fumble. Is a symbol, and it can mean different things depending on the situation.
Or a Gandalf is not equal to autosuccess. If you are rolling for the Fellowship Undertaking "Go See a Loremaster", rolling a Gandalf just means you've got a very good outcome, but nothing to do with autosuccess, which is the case when rolling a Gandalf in skill checks.

The different runes can trigger different effects, but those effects and the runes that trigger them are not the same, just cause and consequence.

[Corvo]

No, upon further reflection I don't think it's valid:

1) First, a Called Shot requires a Tengwar icon, not a Great Success.
2) Second, if there is no Tengwar then it's not a successful attack, and Bowman of the Guild requires you to start with at least a normal success.

Too bad (sort of) because that would have made it better than King's Blade or Stinging Arrow: higher Injury rating and increased damage.

I see your point. Better, because I was feeling it was overpowered otherwise

[Falenthal]

make the first stage of "Elf Lights" not cost Hope, but also not be magically attractive. That is, anybody who saw it could investigate if they wanted to, but wouldn't be compelled to. Then by spending XP you could learn the version that is magically attractive (for a point of Hope).

Not a bad idea. Remember that this virtue has also the following effect:

You may snuff out the light at will, even from a distance,
either to extinguish the flame quickly and quietly, or to
cause it to flare suddenly to blind and confuse your
enemies (those standing close to the flare fight as if Weary
for one round of combat).

So, it's not just a magical zippo.

[Corvo]

No, upon further reflection I don't think it's valid:

1) First, a Called Shot requires a Tengwar icon, not a Great Success.
2) Second, if there is no Tengwar then it's not a successful attack, and Bowman of the Guild requires you to start with at least a normal success.

Too bad (sort of) because that would have made it better than King's Blade or Stinging Arrow: higher Injury rating and increased damage.

By the way, Francesco Nepitello just confirmed your interpretation of the rule in this other thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3261

[Glorelendil]

No, upon further reflection I don't think it's valid:

1) First, a Called Shot requires a Tengwar icon, not a Great Success.
2) Second, if there is no Tengwar then it's not a successful attack, and Bowman of the Guild requires you to start with at least a normal success.

Too bad (sort of) because that would have made it better than King's Blade or Stinging Arrow: higher Injury rating and increased damage.

By the way, Francesco Nepitello just confirmed your interpretation of the rule in this other thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3261

Yup, saw that.

And although it's redundant, philosophically I believe my second point is accurate. A mechanic that increases a success by one level, but does not explicitly turn a non-success into a normal success, would not turn a missed Called Shot into a hit.

[Glorelendil]

Anybody have any ideas for a Long Sword cultural reward for Bardings, to replace Spear of King Bladorthin? I hate to create yet-another-Gandalf-mechanic.

My hunch is that this mechanic should improve chance of hitting. If we look at Beornings, the other culture with low wits, the virtue that improves their bad Parry comes at the price of armor. Thus another of their virtues compensates for low Protection.

Bardings get their much-needed Parry through Defensive Stance, which means the "cost" is higher TNs. But the downside to just giving the sword a bonus to hit (besides being boring) is that its value diminishes as skill increases. A lot.

The following solutions are already "taken":
- Runes of Victory (enchanted quality)
- Shadow Bane (mirkwood elves)
- Serpent Scimitar (Men of the Lake)
- Fair Shot (hobbits, and kind of overpowered for non-Hobbits)

Another way of looking at it is that being forced into Defensive stance is only a problem when skill is low; and that when the Barding's skill goes up it basically becomes an across-the-board +3 Parry. In which case...what should a Barding's sword do?

One option would be to make it something that has nothing to do with combat. Or, at least, nothing to do with attack rolls, damage, pierces, etc. "On a great success on a Fear test, you may let one companion succeed. On an extraordinary success, you may let two succeed." (E.g., the way the Ranger virtue works with Fatigue tests.)

P.S. I'm going specifically for Long Sword, not Sword or (sword) for two reason: first, there is currently no cultural reward Long Sword in the game. Second, a Barding who is committed to regular sword is probably planning to always use a shield, in which case he already has a cultural reward.