Balancing Virtues and Rewards

[Glorelendil]

The XP is the cost to upgrade during FP. Or were you asking something different?

Agree about resource tracking, but I don't like the lesser version costing 1 Hope. I would rarely/never spend a point of Hope just to make an attractive light, and it's a cool enough spell that I'd like to see it get used more often.

Maybe just "once per session"?

My main issue with Stinging Arrow is that as part of Elf-magic it makes the virtue far less attractive to spear elves.

(Typing on phone.)

[Falenthal]

The XP is the cost to upgrade during FP. Or were you asking something different?

I guess the question is "Why does it cost 2XP instead of 1XP?"

I have the same question, and plan to comment on the rest tomorrow. Real life is a hindrance to what really matters.

[Glorelendil]

The XP is the cost to upgrade during FP. Or were you asking something different?

I guess the question is "Why does it cost 2XP instead of 1XP?"

I have the same question, and plan to comment on the rest tomorrow. Real life is a hindrance to what really matters.

Oh, I just made it 2 XP because it's quite powerful, and Hound of Mirkwood varies the XP cost on some of the features. But maybe it should just be 1 XP; I'm not stuck on that part.

[Glorelendil]

Oh, and I finally thought of another upgrade to Herbal Remedies: an herb that it lets you help Wounded allies recover faster, increasing rate by 1 (i.e., 2/day if untreated, 3/day if treated). Some (stiff?) TN to find the herb, but it only works when fresh, so after 2 days you have to search again.

[Falenthal]

Elf-magic

New trait: Fair Folk. The spirit of the Eldar burns brightly in you, even as it fades from the world. You are sensitive to the lingering presence of Elven “magic” (as mortals would call it), and others sense it in you...if you choose to reveal it.

My concern with this is that it seems more appropiate for Noldo elves than for Sylvan, who never saw the light of Aman. Personally I wouldn't add a Trait to the Virtue, but it's just my opinion. In some ways, The Speakers already cover that part of elves and their special attachment to the world.

For 1 XP: Elf-lights
(As per description in rules, without Hope cost.) Each Adventure Phase you may use this ability as many times as your Wisdom score.

For 2 XP: Enchanted Slumber
(As per description in rules, and costs 1 point of Hope.)

I like them. Although I agree with zed that the Wisdom limit implies more bookkeeping, I also think that elven magic -being something "natural" for them- shouldn't rely on a finite resource. It should have a limit to represent the fact that magic draws from the energy of the caster (to use D&D words), but an experienced sylvan hero who is low on Hope would probably never use this virtue. That's also not appealing for me. Elves should be able to use their magic for their entire lives, it's part of them, not something they use when young and naive and that is let down when they grow older because their energies are running out. Quite the contrary, in my opinion. As their Wisdom is higher, elves are more "magical". If TOR ever comes to this, human magic should rely on Hope (and be fueled by Shadow Points, like the Force and the Dark Side ).

How about this for a revised version of Stinging Arrow:

Stinging Arrows
Your arrows flicker as if with a magical fire, making them fly true and bite hard. Add your basic Heart rating to your Injury rating for your bow.

My idea of an elven archer is, because of the light bows they use, that their advantatge should be in firing faster than others (the woodland bow allows for this), that they hit more often that others (better skill, less hinderance penalty, higher bonus when spending Hope in attack rolls,...) and that they are more precise when hitting (lower Edge). But also I'll add that their bows are not as strong as the human or galadhrim longbows: that means that their Damage and Injury should not be raised (significantly) by Rewards or Virtues.
Once again, I would try to avoid asking for Hope expenditure everytime a sylvan archer has to shoot: Maybe with Stinging Arrows I'd add the basic Heart to the attack roll (ranges from +2 to +4).

Here's a new version of Deadly Archery, to go with Wood-elf Magic:

Deadly Archery
...no use against the arrows of the Elves that could hit a bird’s eye in the dark.

You have practised for many long years until you are capable of performing feats with a bow that mortals find astounding. Your arrows have twice the range of others and you are less affected by circumstances: a mild Hinderance does not affect you, and a moderate Hinderance adds only +2 to your TN.

Additionally, you may spend a point of Hope to select Rearward Stance even if you would not otherwise qualify, either due to the number of opponents or the number of allies in close combat.

In line with what I said before, and considering that Woodland Bow already allow to shoot faster, and Stinging Arrows allow to hit more often, Deadly Archery should allow to increase the chance of scoring an Edge.
Could be as easy as lowering the Edge of bows (even longbows) by 1.
After all, the bow used by the hero could also be improved with Keen. The fact that its Injury rating cannot be improved by any Virtue or Reward other than Fell is a measure of control for not having a Legolas "one arrow, two kills" companion in the game.
The benefits to range and Hinderance are something that I like a lot, only I don't know if this Virtue would become too overpowered if they where also included here.

[Corvo]

About the Woodmen "A Hunter's Resolve"...
I like it thematically and mechanically, wasn't for the hope point cost.

What about just excising the Hope point cost and keeping the rest as written? I'm wondering if the "once per day" limitation can be enough: recovering 5-8 res per day isn't terribly overpowered if compared to Staunching Songs, Brothers to Bears, Ravens of the Mountain...

Well, you're unlikely to have more than one Combat per day, so it ends up being equal to +5-8 Endurance, which is twice the other virtues that raise Endurance.

Nobody had any reactions to my revised Elf-magic?

About Hunter's Resolve: you said that it's "twice the other virtues that raise Endurance" [Staunching Songs]. But Staunching songs doesn't cost you anything. And it treat wounds. And it scale up with your character (it heals up to Wisdom x3). And it can be used on others, in a pinch.
There is no reason to not "spam" staunching songs on yourself after any combat. It's a damn useful virtue.

On the other hand, a Hunter's Resolve... how many times are you willing to spend an Hope point to recover, say, 7 endurance?
Rarely. Only when you are desperate probably, and probably it doesn't make much of a difference, because it's just the equivalent of 1-2 hits from goblin arrows and you can do it just once a day.

I gave to one of my players a pregenerated pc with that virtue, and he never used it in three adventures. Hence my doubts about that virtue.

About revised Elf-magic... well, I'm the wrong person to ask an opinion about that
I think that Elf-Lights are poweful enough as they are, let alone with the expanded powers in HotW (or was it DoM?).
I see it as an awesome ambush instrument. All living, speaking opponents (wolves, orcs, etc) EITHER lose a point of hate (all of them, without any roll: super-intimidation!), OR they follow the light as idiots in the ambush spot (and become weary for a round as soon as the lamp is shut: perfect troll-killing combo with prepared shot). Add Enchanted Sleep and it's a damn powerful weapon.
I think that the Hope point expenditure is needed, else it becomes a cheap trick.
Hence my doubts about the need for a revised Elf Magic

[Falenthal]

About revised Elf-magic... well, I'm the wrong person to ask an opinion about that
I think that Elf-Lights are poweful enough as they are, let alone with the expanded powers in HotW (or was it DoM?).
I see it as an awesome ambush instrument. All living, speaking opponents (wolves, orcs, etc) EITHER lose a point of hate (all of them, without any roll: super-intimidation!), OR they follow the light as idiots in the ambush spot (and become weary for a round as soon as the lamp is shut: perfect troll-killing combo with prepared shot). Add Enchanted Sleep and it's a damn powerful weapon.
I think that the Hope point expenditure is needed, else it becomes a cheap trick.
Hence my doubts about the need for a revised Elf Magic

Very good points about Elf-magic.

I'd only add that I'm only a bit disappointed by the fact that most elven virtues (and all that improve archery) need the expenditure of Hope points to work. And elves are really low on Hope points. And they SHOULD be excellent archers. And the older they are, the more magical they should be, not the other way round.
Requiring Wisdom or some skill check (Song) seems more appropiate than Hope points.

[Glorelendil]

I forgot to respond to Zed's suggestion about reducing "Hindered": I thought of that approach, but didn't want to replicate the Sure Shot enchanted quality. But your solution is nice: it is a lesser version of Sure Shot, just like Keen is a lesser version of Superior Keen.

As to "Fair-folk" and whether it's more appropriately Noldor, and/or whether it fits with Speakers: I see Speakers as relating to the natural "magic" (the lingering touch of Eru) present in all of creation, whereas I was going for something that relates more to the lore/craft/art of the original elves who met Orome before the 1st age. So, yeah, I agree that in some ways it makes more sense for the Noldor, but Elven magic is present in all of them.

By the way, on Elf-lights and Enchanted Slumber: does the use of the latter negate the Weary effect of the former? Either way, I still posit that a point of Hope is not only too high of a price to pay, but it doesn't thematically fit with most other expenditures of Hope. In most cases Hope is used when you try something and don't achieve the result you were hoping for, so you dig deep and turn failure into success. Casting Elf-lights is completely different. "A convenient finite resource" just isn't a good enough reason to include it.

But, at the same time...it is quite powerful. Maybe it should be 1/session use, with a TN of 10 + Attribute level of victims, using Wisdom as the skill? (Or Craft skill with a Wisdom bonus?)

I'm really enjoying this discussion...lots of great observations and ideas.

[zedturtle]

I think you need to make peace with your inner min-maxer and just radically accept that Hope is an excellent way of limiting magic.

Plus, you have 'There and Back Again', Confidence, and the Kingstone.

Maybe we need an option to purposefully make yourself Weary for a couple extra temporary points of Hope. Cue speech from Gandalf in Moria.

[Glorelendil]

I think you need to make peace with your inner min-maxer and just radically accept that Hope is an excellent way of limiting magic.

Plus, you have 'There and Back Again', Confidence, and the Kingstone.

Maybe we need an option to purposefully make yourself Weary for a couple extra temporary points of Hope. Cue speech from Gandalf in Moria.

Oh that's a really interesting idea. Could limit it to uses other than invoking attributes. I.e., fuel for Virtues & Rewards.

But I really don't think it's an excellent way of fueling magic. It's a convenient resource, sure, but that doesn't make it a good fit. Spending Endurance or acquiring Fatigue would make more sense.

EDIT: Know what's a better resource? Eye of Mordor.