Balancing Virtues and Rewards

[zedturtle]

Oh that's a really interesting idea. Could limit it to uses other than invoking attributes. I.e., fuel for Virtues & Rewards.

I think the disadvantage of becoming Weary would naturally offset any uses of Hope to invoke Attribute bonuses.

But I really don't think it's an excellent way of fueling magic. It's a convenient resource, sure, but that doesn't make it a good fit. Spending Endurance or acquiring Fatigue would make more sense.

EDIT: Know what's a better resource? Eye of Mordor.

Eye of Mordor is good, my still in process magic rules use Hope and the Hunt together to make magic self-limiting.

[Falenthal]

After re-reading the elven Virtues and the different thoughts about it, I found that there are just 2 things that I'd like to see changed:
1) Stinging Arrow being the first "spell" in Wood-elf Magic, which isn't very useful for spearmen.
2) That the use of every ability related to Archery demands Hope expenditure.

Besides that, I don't feel the need to change the Virtues themselves. I always think that, the less changes, the better.

For the first one, I think an easy solution would be to make Elf-lights the first "spell" and Stinging Arrow one of the list that you can master using a Fellowship Phase and spending one XP. Stinging Arrow shouldn't be mandatory to learn Enchanted Sleep. The player can choose which one to learn each time.

For the second concern, the one about Hope points, there can be plenty of alternatives. I like a lot, like a said, tying the use of the Virtue with the Wisdom of the character. I'd limit the use of Deadly Archery and Stinging Arrow to as many times as Wisdom per Adventure Phase. In fact, Stinging Arrow also elevates the Eye of Mordor, as it is considered Magic. And reaching Wisdom 6 is not so easy, so that I don't expect most elven heroes to use this abilities more than 3 or 4 times per Adventure. Not so overpowered when we are talking about the "feared" elven archers! And, again, we are talking about increasing the chance to hit or wound with a short bow most of the time (I don't think most mirwood elf players will learn long bow), with its low damage and Injury.

Besides, I like the relation between Valour and Magical Items, which scalate with the character. In the case of magical abilities/Virtues, I'd like to see such relationship, but regarding Wisdom. Otherwise, when they are related to Hope, the fact is that Virtues become less used as characters grow, instead of becoming more powerful as the heroes raise in personal power and knowledge.
Or at least, the Virtues could have the structure of Staunching Song: one basic effect by passing a skill check, and a higher effect if Hope is spent.

For me, that would settle it all. But I'm eager to hear critics and opinions, as you guys always have something to add that surprises me.

[Glorelendil]

I share Zed's concern about tracking resources, but other than that I prefer making them "as many times per adventure as your wisdom score" instead of Hope. And, like you, I like seeing abilities scale with Wisdom or Valour. (Note that Numenorean Arrows scale this way.)

I'd be ok with shifting Stinging Arrow not being the first thing you learn, but in that case I'd like to see another "spell" that works with spears. (Similar to how Hound of Mirkwood has one ability for archers and one for axemen.) Otherwise it's still a better virtue for archers.

EDIT: And I'm very much in agreement with Falenthal about Elves and archery. Thus I really don't like that they have to spend Hope to play their canonical role as master archers. ("Fair Shot" should be an Elven virtue; Hobbits should be masters at throwing, not archery.)

An oft-repeated truism is that "Hope is for early in your career before you have skill. Later in your career you don't have the Hope to spend, but you have higher skill so you don't need it." Ok, then...what about elves? If you exclude Hope both a Barding and a Woodman will out-shoot an Elf, both because they have better bows and because their virtues/rewards are passive.

It should be possible for Elves to close the bow-performance-gap through virtues. However, Falenthal may be right that reducing Edge makes more sense than increasing Injury. My idea virtue would improve accuracy at low level and damage at higher levels. (Maybe just make Shadow Bane apply in Forward or Rearward?)

[Falenthal]

I'd be ok with shifting Stinging Arrow not being the first thing you learn, but in that case I'd like to see another "spell" that works with spears. (Similar to how Hound of Mirkwood has one ability for archers and one for axemen.) Otherwise it's still a better virtue for archers.

Wood-elf Magic could include a number of "spells" to choose from. I can't come up with any elven magic that applies to dealing damage when in melee. But maybe something about their fastness when in melee could be in line. Elven lighting reflexes are already represented by high Wits = high Parry rating, but something about being able to change engagement freely during the round or so. This way your comrades can damage the foes and the elf can go for the killing blow each round. But I feel this ability to be a little strange. Not very fond of the idea.
Or also something related to fighting better in the woods, like the Woodmen have. Ignoring or reducing hindraces could apply here (like zed pointed out, but for melee).

My idea virtue would improve accuracy at low level and damage at higher levels. (Maybe just make Shadow Bane apply in Forward or Rearward?)

As for this, and like I said before, I wouldn't change other Virtues. Or where you referring to include Shadow Bane in Woodelf-Magic?

[bluejay]

Couple of points here.

With my group of high level characters, nearly all are at full Hope most of the time. Perhaps I'm not challenging them enough but honestly they rarely seem to use it and their Fellowship Points are often available. The Elf archer in the group repeatedly uses Stinging Arrow to devastating effect.

Hobbits do have at least some precedent as archers. They use bows in the scouring of the Shire and fielded a group of archers at the Battle of Fornost.

[Glorelendil]

Oh, I wasn't actively promoting the inclusion of Rearward stance in Shadow Bane, just saying that such a thing would make some sense thematically and mechanically. It's the kind of design solution that I think would work.

Re: Hobbits. There is precedent for Hobbits using bows, but there is no mention of them being particularly gifted with them. But there are references to Hobbits being gifted at throwing, and elves at archery. Given that, it seems rather strange that Hobbits are more accurate with bows. Fair Shot + Bow of the North Downs = hardly ever miss.

In my PbP campaign the poor elf has missed the attercops every round of six so far, with skill 3.

EDIT: I really want to play a Hobbit who takes Fair Shot and then pumps up Dagger skill in order to specialize in throwing rocks.

[Rocmistro]

Ok I realize I'm late to this and you're not talking about it, but Brazen Armour is excellent and needs no fixing.

Since spears and arrows tend to be in the 12-14 TN range (for enemies), 2d is all you need. Meanwhile, Axes, Hammers and Swords, which all tend to be in the 16-18 range, you get 4d, which is the boost you need.

[Glorelendil]

Ok I realize I'm late to this and you're not talking about it, but Brazen Armour is excellent and needs no fixing.

Since spears and arrows tend to be in the 12-14 TN range (for enemies), 2d is all you need. Meanwhile, Axes, Hammers and Swords, which all tend to be in the 16-18 range, you get 4d, which is the boost you need.

Look at the sim I ran. 2nd post.

Short version: the TNs are easier, but you get pierced more often.

[zedturtle]

Ok I realize I'm late to this and you're not talking about it, but Brazen Armour is excellent and needs no fixing.

Since spears and arrows tend to be in the 12-14 TN range (for enemies), 2d is all you need. Meanwhile, Axes, Hammers and Swords, which all tend to be in the 16-18 range, you get 4d, which is the boost you need.

Look at the sim I ran. 2nd post.

Short version: the TNs are easier, but you get pierced more often.

Did you account for Hope expenditures in your sim? I find that Hope to prevent a Wound is a pretty good bet...

[Glorelendil]

Ok I realize I'm late to this and you're not talking about it, but Brazen Armour is excellent and needs no fixing.

Since spears and arrows tend to be in the 12-14 TN range (for enemies), 2d is all you need. Meanwhile, Axes, Hammers and Swords, which all tend to be in the 16-18 range, you get 4d, which is the boost you need.

Look at the sim I ran. 2nd post.

Short version: the TNs are easier, but you get pierced more often.

Did you account for Hope expenditures in your sim? I find that Hope to prevent a Wound is a pretty good bet...

Oh, interesting. I didn't measure the average amount by which the tests were failed. In theory the armor might result in a smaller gap, meaning that Hope would be more likely to turn a failure into success.